Your first step is wrong:

"then there would be no reason for states that dislike the US not to engage in it."

Attacking a country instead of the organisation itself leads to more terrorism, as you can see in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What part of "state sponsored terrorism" was unclear?

Or to be specific, how do you attack an organization but not the state that is shielding them?

Oh man do you know the history of Al Quaida? To form a resistance against the russian invasion of afghanistan the USA brought 100.000 mercenaries from the islamic states to afghanistan to fight a holy war against the russians. With leaders like Bin Laden they stayed in Afghanistan and kept fighting, this time for the warlords. So who trained Bin Laden in terroristic attacks and to build a a terroristic network that still recruits their members from arabic countries? It was the USA that´s responsible for that situation, the Taliban just overtook afghanistan, that was left weak and destroyed by the war.
Who do you want to attack? The CIA that created this mess? Think twice, if you want to change historical facts...

I am well aware of Bin Laden's past, thank you. That, however, has little or nothing to do with the facts on the ground in 2001. In *2001*, Afghanistan was his sponsor. The undeniable - and *not denied* - fact that the CIA used him against the Russians is ironic, but irrelevant.

You're either deliberately missing the point or aren't bright enough to get it. In either case, I refuse to waste my time with you any longer - it's obvious that you Know What You Know, and that any contrary facts are just going to be discarded.

Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit.
-- Goethe

@strat
"The undeniable - and *not denied* - fact that the CIA used him against the Russians is ironic, but irrelevant. "

Like the uprising of Saddam Hussein it is not irrelevant! The USA also financed the first Gulf War and supportet Saddam Hussein with money and weapons to attack the Iran.
A famous quote from Goethe suits very well on american foreign policies:

"Die Geister die ich rief, werd ich nun nicht los!"

You don´t see that this is happening again, the support of the "new" iraqui government, the destabilization of Pakistan, all this will lead to the next big disaster made by the US Government. You are so ignorant about the US History, they do the same failures again and again...

@fried

Your quote of Goethe fits perfectly on your behavior in this thread, it made me even laugh louder, because i know you don´t understand a word :-)

Miro -

You're hilarious. You find a way to argue points that noone else is talking about no matter what we say! You have yet to actually respond to the questions posed by Strat and myself. Until you do, consider your words ignored. Have fun talking to yourself though, at least you'll agree then.

Why should i argued with people like you?

"@ Miro - so you were out partying to the point you were still recovering *Tuesday afternoon*, but were also still living with your parents? Classy."

That was stratagos first comment on me. He isn´t intelligent enough to think of a human beeing that is visiting his parents while on it´s holidays and partying with friends in his old home town during the week. No instead he goes right after me with his dumb insults and because of what?
I just said i was almost crying because of the attacks on 9/11 and thinking about what will happen because of them.

So why should i argue about facts and historical events while stratagos is talking about his bad breath in a rememberance thread on 9/11?

"Why should I answer you - you're mean to me, and therefore your questions are irrelevant"

Exactly, i don´t talk to idiots...

Idiots? Please Miro, all we've done is ask logical questions and all you've done is avoid answering them. Get off your high horse and look past the one thing that Strat said that was somewhat questionable. You're not going to like everything that everyone says in life. Avoiding a debate simply because Strat said that one comment is silly. Clearly you think you're in the right, so go ahead and answer our questions and prove it. Otherwise, your posts are irrelevant and you're simply trolling this thread.

I have been insulted because of my nationality, my disagreement on the US foreign politics and the most ridiculous cause, i speak german better than a guy who speaks no german at all... They covered the insults with critizism of a very poor kind. I still see no reason to respond to them while they keep insulting me. It´s a matter of integrity, a word some people seem to never heard of it.
But that´s the internet ;-)

Miro -

You still haven't answered my questions. By my recollection, I haven't insulted you yet, so please, answer my questions. You can't claim your viewpoints are correct if you aren't willing to answer criticism of them.

"I don't want to answer your questions, as I do not have a good response. Therefore, I will claim to be personally offended and refuse to do so."

You are expecting me to say what is the successful way to fighting terrorism? Ok,
first of all you finally have to accept to stop the contraproductive ways, so:

Stop fighting conventional wars, it´s like trying to kill a fly with a machinegun.
Stop supporting dictators and stop supporting a coup d'état against democratic countries.
Stop tortureing people.
This sends a convincing messages to the world, "we are still under attack but we don´t act as a drunken cowboy in a salon anymore".

Second, care for your allies:
- Don´t try threat or intimidate them that never worked out.
- Gather reliable facts on terroristic activitaties and do never show up at the UN with a "i-am-a-fucking-liar-but-my-boss-forces-me-too-do-that-face" and lie about WMDs, again.
- Support islamic culture in your own country, encourige them to reform and emanzipate from the arabic influence

This two points are a good start for a longtime peacful relationship to your worlds allies, and your islamic minority.

Third: Try to catch terrorists instead of killing them all the time. No infomation is reliable the was brought by torture, it never was. So deal with them for information.
Use manpower to investigate, not computers. Humans make the difference between information and disinformation, that means intelligence agencies have to recruit more investigators then hardware.
Predator drones - if you have enough information to be sure to kill high rank members of terrorists groups, kill them. The heades of the leaders have to be the end of all investigations, killing the "lower" terrorists just keeps you off getting the information about the big fishes.

Fourth, don´t let your feelings decide over your actions. An old enemy could turn into an ally. See, fear and hatred are only used as jusifications for bad and evil actions.

This amuses me that a German is telling us how we should play nice with armed assholes.

Irony is calling, friends.

Also, if us being in Afganistan is so screwed up, why is the German army there helping us? Five thousand Germans isn't a huge number of troops, but you are in third place behind the Brits.

They are there because it´s a NATO mission, do your homework...

Wow. The depths of your idiocy is amazing.

Its marvelously irrelevant if the Budeswehr contingent is there as NATO allies of the United States, or as merely allies of the United States.

The simple fact remains that your own government, (which is democratic because of American, British, Polish, French, Norwegian, Belgian, Dutch, ad nausem laid their lives to make you assholes stop being such bastards) has sent troops to support our mission in Afghanistan.

You miss the point entirely. Which is par for the course with you

What a stupid fucker:

"Stop fighting conventional wars, it´s like trying to kill a fly with a machinegun."

We haven't fought a conventional war since 1954.

"Stop supporting dictators and stop supporting a coup d'état against democratic countries."

We haven't done this since the 1980's. Stop reading back issues of Junge Welt, and pick up the Bild.

"Stop tortureing people."

Regardless of whether waterboarding is torture, you don't even know for a fact that we do torture people. Beyond that, if you are certain that someone has the information, why not torture them? If I know Abdullah planted a bomb in Building X, you'd better bet your goddamn Iron Cross that I'm gonna torture him.

"This sends a convincing messages to the world, 'we are still under attack but we don´t act as a drunken cowboy in a salon anymore'."

I don't think we ever acted like that; besides, as the cowboy (the real cowboy, not the George W. Bush type) is a national heroic archetype, much in the mold of the Viking, or Charlemagne to a German.

Second, care for your allies:
"Don´t try threat or intimidate them that never worked out."

Show me where we have ever intimidated an ally, or threatened.

"Gather reliable facts on terroristic activitaties and do never show up at the UN with a "i-am-a-fucking-liar-but-my-boss-forces-me-too-do-that-face" and lie about WMDs, again."

That's like me saying "Hey Miro, stop taking it up the butt, and don't ever lie to your parents about being a homosexual again."

"Support islamic culture in your own country, encourige them to reform and emanzipate from the arabic influence"

This coming from a guy whose country, when polled this week, responded 65% in favor of outlawing the hijab, the burqua, and any other face or head veils for Islamic women. And from the guy whose neighboring eurotrash country banned said scarves and veils today.

Ask any Muslim in America, and they will tell you that for all its faults there is NOWHERE a muslim would rather be. Try getting a Turk in Berlin to say the same thing about Germany. There's a reason all Turkish ethnic films from Germany are about how depressing it is to live there, and how hate-filled your people are.

This para:

>I don't think we ever acted like that; besides, as the cowboy (the real cowboy, not the >George W. Bush type) is a national heroic archetype, much in the mold of the Viking, >or Charlemagne to a German.

is supposed to say "I don't think we ever acted like that; besides, as the cowboy (the real cowboy, not the George W. Bush type) is a national heroic archetype, much in the mold of the Viking, or Charlemagne to a German, why not act like one?"

I've come to two conclusions with this thread:

Miro = Idiotic troll of 13.

FriedOkraBlues = Closet homosexual who is a little too obsessed with making references to homosexual activity as compenstation for secretly wishing one of them would fuck his ass good.

Ooh, you volunteering Drauggy?

No, its just fun to use because it accomplishes my trollish need to inflame types like you.

Sure. I've got a Louisville Slugger that would please you. And no, that isn't a euphemism. I live in Kentucky, home state of the Louisville Slugger.

I am no intimidated child, Miro.

I merely don't wish to discuss conspiracy theories or how wrongful wars are on a thread that was to be dedicared to the innocent victims of 9/11.

Truly, you yourself are guilt of turning peace to war, a collection of peaceful and thoughtful rememberences of that fateful day into a thread of sniping and politics and close-mindedness.

A typical Miro thread.



Respond if you will, call me the usual, intimidated and close-minded and foolish and all of the rest.

There's a Troll, about, folks...and perhaps in a more literal sense of the word than generally applied, so I would advise caution and restraint in dealing with such a thick creature or, barring that, to turn away as he leaps and howls for attention...perhaps without his daily mean of arrogance and attention the Troll will wither away...

FriedOkra is the typical archetype of an american dumbass :-)
Made me laugh but it is a shame how many stupid people live in the USA...I hope the smart people around Obama don´t give up against teabaggers, koranburners and the KKK.

Miro Klose is a Nazi.

Says who?

You. Your words show you to be a Nazi.

I understand, you think Obama is a Nazi, i support Obama what makes me a Nazi!
Very clever little guy that named himself Invictus and lost over 80% of his games :-)