"Sure, Eden, it's egocentric. Notice how we were talking about an actual issue - the ethnic studies program - and you turned it into the usual 101 ways that you disapprove of my debating tactics. You even admitted that you weren't taking any side of the ethnic studies thing, but I'm deluded into thinking you just came into this discussion to get at me. Right."

Uh, no, I said I hadn't at the time. I happen to think that censorship is bad and that there have been some problematic aspects of Arizona's response to illegal immigration, but I also hoped, upon hearing an Arizonan (is it -ian or -an?) posting in the thread (which I'd been reading the whole time but declined comment), that I might be able to get another perspective and broaden my own understanding of the situation. Then you showed up and turned it into another "lol look it's some anonymous internet badass saying things I don't like" pissing contest. Thanks for that.

"Congrats, you win the webdip Prom King poll."

Context absent, but I suppose that's par for the course.

"I remember it clearly. Ever since I said libertarians make common cause with neo-nazis."

Wait, you thought I gave a shit about that? lol. I'm kind of impressed with how personally invested you must be in these forums to think that I or anyone else would be remotely bothered by such trifling nonsense.

"At least you got the reference."

...yeah...? What's so groundbreaking about that?

I've been staying out of this for a while because I've probably had this argument 100 times, and never can convince anyone. I don't know why I keep doing this (see definition of insanity). I guess I am just an old guy who thinks the culture should be taught like I learned, from my grandmother, not from a school. That's why I am not as upset as a lot of people. And to be fair, a lot of the uproar is coming from people that don't even live in our community. They are coming in and stirring the pot, and it is pissing everyone here off, including people who were initially sympathetic to the cause. The quiet people don't make the news quotes, or the 15 second sound bites. Only the fringe wackos on both sides.

And Putin, I live in the Tucson area, which you claim isn't like the rest of Arizona. In some respects, I agree with that. But where do you think the ethnic studies problem is taking place?

obi-twerp, you need to address Umbrella's comments on the first page of this stupid thread.

You also need to read Noam Chomsky's and Edward Herman's MANUFACTURING CONSENT. This work will help you with your EXTREMELY STUPID slavish trust in the american media (I hope).

"The quiet people don't make the news quotes, or the 15 second sound bites."

Yeah, you're the people who sit around yammering about how "something should be done" while bitching and moaning at anybody who bothers to stand up and try to fight. You 'quiet people' who do nothing but bitch and moan about the people who dare to struggle are the reason why the world goes to shit. Everybody has to appease your feelings while you'll still sit and do nothing anyway.

" And to be fair, a lot of the uproar is coming from people that don't even live in our community."

And we should take your word for it, again. I guess the students of Tucson aren't "members of your community", and this well-regarded program with its rigorous curriculum that was banned for no reason wasn't well regarded by "members of your community". You'll find any excuse in the book to sit there and do nothing, laugh at the people who oppose censorship, laugh at the people who were fired for teaching ethnic studies, laugh at the students who want to learn about their own heritage, claiming that people's grandparents should teach them about Chicano studies, because schools I guess aren't meant for learning. I guess African Americans should not be taught their own history in schools either, we should just trust the older generations will bestow this complex knowledge on the youth, right. Why bother with schools at all, everybody can afford to homeschool their kids, right?

"But where do you think the ethnic studies problem is taking place?"

Yeah exactly, the "ethnic studies problem" (as you call it) is taking place in Tucson, and this ban was brought about from pressure from the state government, as Tucson initially resisted shutting down the program. But since they could not resist the massive financial pressure (losing 10% of their funding) to censor their own schools and deprive their students of knowledge of their own history, they caved. What on earth is your point here? The fact that Tucson had this MSA program is proof that Tucson is much more liberal than the rest of Arizona.The fact that Tucson resisted state pressure to shut it down is proof that Tucson is much more liberal than the rest of Arizona.

Let it never be said that you give a damn about free speech, critical thinking, or education. Because you can't be bothered, and the "fringe wackos" who dare to think that this action by the state government is an abomination and a racist assault on their heritage get nothing but contempt from you.

I like how Putin starts berating members of his persecuted minorities when they don't sign on for the revolution.

BTW, this is another classic case of webdip "not taking sides" bs. Do you guys drink some koolaid that requires you to regurgitate talking points about how you're above the fray and how you hate 'both sides', as if being 'neutral' while a school district hauls books and throws them in a warehouse, fires teachers, and threatens anybody who dares teach about Chicano oppression isn't a position?

"I like how Putin starts berating members of his persecuted minorities when they don't sign on for the revolution."

I like how Semck pretends he's an ally of minorities when they give him the green light to be an entitled prick.

Funny, I thought you constitutionalist tub thumpers cared something about 'free speech', I guess that only counts when its racist, misogynists, homophobes, and religious zealots doing the 'speaking'.

Oh, and billionaires. Forgot, money = "speech".

Ummmmmm...so...yeah...

This was about an effing Catholic School, baseball game, and Arizona...

You guys...

How did you turn this into the WebDip equivalent of a verbal caged grudgematch?

We're still talking about Arizona. Please tell us what is permissible to talk about in threads that you created. Evidently even when we stay on topic you still have to give us the obligatory "how did this thread get on this topic", routine.

Well, I don't know, Putin, it seems to me you've been rudely pissing on...

Well, just about everyone else in the thread.

But carry on, carry on...for you, that is on topic, I suppose (OH! Get a load of this, folks...between Putin and I the sheer amount of smug-white-college-aged-male-pretentiousness in this thread...!)

Just be glad it wasn't a Muslim team that had to play the team with a woman on it ... their honor would have had them kill her, Problem solved!

I hope you are being facetious, Gina...

Not that I think lending my voice to this debate will actually help Putin's point, but I do think there is a problem here. Yes, lived experience is a thing and dismissing it in a debate like this is a problem. And obviously Umbrella is in a better position to speak about anti-hispanic racism in Arizona than any of the rest of us. This much is true. That being said, I have noticed that whenever a member of a minority group expresses an opinion on a contentious social issue that conservatives agree with, they do tend to privilege this one person's lived experience above all others, and attempt to make them the spokesperson for that minority group (which is why we all end up seeing that video clip of Morgan Freeman talking about Black History Month 6 or 7 times every February).
Apparently Umbrella doesn't feel that systemic racism has been a big part of his experience as a Hispanic person living in Arizona. That doesn't mean no one there has experienced it, or that we can therefore separate this event from that context. Umbrella can only speak to his experience, but his lived experience does not overwrite the lived experience of everyone else who feels that these educational moves were an attempt to silence oppressed voices.

I should make my last sentence clearer, his lived experience does not overwrite the lived experience of other Hispanic Arizonans who feel that these educational moves were an attempt to silence oppressed voices.

I have comrades who organized with the Brown Berets (including who a guy who is being railroaded by the FBI on a bogus weapons charge based on the fact that he threw a bottle at a pig (police) 30 years ago). I have comrades who are organizing with MeCHa. Chicano rights is a cause that I'm intimately involved with. When the passbook law came into effect we organized a large number of people to go organize against it. Sorry, but when compradors sit back and allow the Jan Brewers of the world do whatever they want and laugh at the people fighting back I have no respect for that, and I'm not going to take your word for it that your experience is the final word on the matter when I have dozens of comrades struggling while you sit on your hands or make talking points for Fox News to the thunderous applause of white conservatives everywhere.

I can't help but find it more than a little ironic that you were bashing Umbrella for the "I live in Arizona" argument, but that you're now trying to employ "I have Arizona friends" to bolster your own side.

I don't mind that. Thank you for your contribution, Putin. I'm genuinely glad that you hold the defense of Chicano rights as a cause close to your heart, and I respect the work you and your friends have done and continue to do to stand up against injustice against Chicanos - which I do believe has been done in Arizona, undoubtedly, in the wake of the recent counter-illegal-immigration efforts.

But surely if you expect or want us to respect that personal experience and viewpoint, and to better understand where you come from, you should extend the same attempt to understand to others, no? I'm not talking about tolerating intolerance, which I'm sure is where you're thinking of going with this as I type right now, but talking instead about the fact that a Chicano Arizonan is telling us that there's a different story besides the one you're giving with respect to the ethnic studies controversy. I, as an outside observer trying to understand this situation better, am getting conflicting reports - and while I have no reason to distrust either of you (and don't), I have to say that, when I can't verify either report, having one side go "My side is correct and this guy is full of shit" doesn't really help me, or anyone else watching, understand the situation better. So do you mind not doing so, for sake of those of us who might side with you otherwise? Because I'm not really seeing how this is advancing the cause you're trying to defend.

This is hilarious.

Even the fag realizes that Umbrella's points should be addressed here.

obi-troll, who started this thread with his usual insipid why-oh-why-somebody-please-enlighten-me nonsense, COMPLETELY ignores him.

Why shouldn't he though? He has the american media to tell him how it is.

Oh my side......

burp.

Oh mapleleaf...

Well, first, OF OCURSE I slavishly trust the media--

My people and I control it, remember?


But alright, even though I was content to leave this downward spiral...

OK, to respond to Umbrella's first post, as you requested:

"As an Arizonan, I always laugh at stuff like this. The rest of this country has such an image of racism and all that, but everyone I know that has come to visit from other parts of the country (for work purposes) are always very surprised at how things really are here. I could address most of these individually, and I will also admit that there are things that our state could be better at. But for the ethnic studies, I will give an example.

"The ethnic studies was not a banned program."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/20/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez-ethnic-studies-20120220

Keeping in mind that I'm NOT necessarily backing what he's saying--I don't mind the LA Times overall, but then, I live near LA and I'm a Democrat, so yeah, it's slanted but admittedly slanted my way...

In any case, the point of posting the link--there it says it's a BAN.
I have read repeatedly that it's a BAN.
I can only go off the news I create to serve the Jewish banking sys...er...
I can only go off the news I get, after all--

But all the articles and accounts of it I've ever seen and read have said it's a straight-up K-12 BAN, and many cite the same reason this article gives, that Arizona's state legislature banned Ethnic Studies classes and books--particularly Mexican studies--"on the grounds that they promote hatred and division."

So yeah...I've only ever read and seen that it's a ban, straight and simple...

If you have your own sources and links to the contrary--please, fill me in, if I'm not getting the whole story...

Just saying--I've only ever read and seen, from various different sources and newspapers, that it's a full ban, and for the reason quoted above.

"The state decided that it could be an elective, but it couldn't be used as the history credit for graduation, because they wanted to make sure students took US history. The only books that were taken off of the curriculum were books that advocated civil disobedience. These books were not banned. They were still available in the library, just not as part of the courses."

Again, I've read that books were packed and shipped out...I think I recall one was something like "America: 1500 Years Before Columbus," or something like that...but I DO distinctly recall reading that books were shipped out.

So, again--source to back your statement?

Because all I've read is to the contrary of that "the books are still there" statement...as for state curricula, obviously, you'd know more about that than me.

"The proponents of the ethnic studies classes (which at the time were still available as electives) made a very loud public protest, having walkouts at school, disrupting board meetings, etc. They refused to take the classes if they didn't count as credits towards graduation, so the school district dropped them."

I can't speak for the protests, again, wasn't there...

But I WILL say that, if indeed the credit situation is how you describe it...

I don't blame them for being angry or for not taking them--taking classes that don't count towards graduation isn't a very appealing option for many, and as plenty of kids need classes that do count towards graduation, I can see how they might feel marginalized by that decision...if they were arguing for the class to count towards graduation and it hadn't before, I could see the school board's point, but as it did count and now it does not, right, wrong, or indifferent, I can at least understand and somewhat empathize with the anger that community feels.

"So to recap, no books were banned, they were always available."

Again, I've not seen an article to support that, and as with my Columbus-book example (again, can't remember the exact title) I've read the contrary...and I've posted links here as well in previous posts about this as well, I believe, so post a link, and then I'll take a read, otherwise...

"The classes were still originally available to take. If the students felt so strongly about wanting to learn about their culture (which I think is great, BTW), why couldn't they take it as an elective?"

Well, I've said why--

Not everyone has time for those kind of elective classes in HS, and it's a matter of taking what was "main" curricula and making it secondary, "elective" curricula...maybe not the best words, main/secondary, but I think that's at the very least a bit of why they feel so strongly against this--

To demote their program IN CONJUNCTION WITH all the racial profiling/immigration controversy (true or not or fair or not) and I can see how the Latino community might feel marginalized by having classes dealing with their culture demoted in the curricula...

And, again, if MY sources are correct--

It's a ban and the books have been removed, and I can see how that would REALLY incense the community and, if that IS the case, I'd say rightfully so.

Again, if you have your own sources, please, enlighten me and share...

Otherwise--everything I've read in articles and seen on the news is to the contrary of what you said...

OH!

And for a double-whammy here, and to treat mapleleaf's bit about my only using American media here...

An original from when I FIRST posted on this issue, when I was just outraged on behalf of the Bard (I expect a good Obi/Shakespeare/fag joke after this, mapleleaf, it's been too long):

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120123/jsp/foreign/story_15040756.jsp#.T7OESuvlsgM

"London, Jan. 22: Alas, poor Shakespeare. The education authorities in Tucson, Arizona, have decided to ban discussion of The Tempest in class and remove the play from school libraries...

Threatened with financial penalties if it failed to adopt a state ban on ethnic studies, the Tucson school district caved in to a two-year-old law prohibiting courses that “promote the overthrow of the US government, promote resentment towards a race or class of people, are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group, or advocate ethnic solidarity”."

SO!

Key points there:

1. It said BAN...and "the Tucson school district caved in to a two-year-old law prohibiting courses"...so...how is this not a ban? It says a ban, and that's London. that's overseas, none of our good-old-fashioned Jon Stewart Jewish/Democrat bias...maybe a London bias, but you'd have to talk to the Londoners on the site about that--but again, IT SAYS A BAN...WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCES THAT SAY OTHERWISE?

2. Also said they were REMOVING the text from school libraries...so, once again, contradicting your assessment...that's just "The Tempest," but it also said that was the latest in a line of books banned and removed, so...yeah...WHERE'S YOUR SOURCE?

Because otherwise...

I'm sorry, Umbrella--but native or not, my sources say you're account isn't correct.

Bump, since Umbrella and mapleleaf wanted me to address those points so badly...

PLEASE, do me the same, Umbrella, and cite your sources, as I've cited mine, or else, we'll be in that rare position where I've given more cited evidence for my position than my opponent...

*do me the same courtesy (shit, mapleleaf can have tons of fun with this now...all yours, pal...)

Right now, obi, my most reliable source is Umbrella. An anonymous website contributor, whom I trust more than ANY mainstream media source.

Read the Chomsky book I've recommended. It's a quick read and more relevant today than ever.

...Mainstream news isn't trustworthy or worthwhile...

But a book published in the mainstream is?

Do you even know who Noam Chomsky is?

lmao @ calling Noam Chomsky part of the mainstream media

I don't care if you respect or trust my experience. The point is, people who go around making experience claims aren't making arguments.

President Eden, why are you so consumed with how an argument is made to please you and not about the justice of the argument itself? It's seriously mind boggling how you project neutrality on these questions, when you're so often quick to pull the trigger about ' government tyranny' elsewhere.

"lmao @ calling Noam Chomsky part of the mainstream media"

Pantheon Books is not exactly a fringe publisher.