I agree with gregoire. Genuine communism is an impossibility even in theory.

Capitalism tells workers to start looking out for their own interests, stop buying the bs we're fed every day about how we're all in this together. Workers should win power for themselves, and tell the parasites to go to hell.

So-called 'genuine' communism (I assume you mean 2nd stage socialism) is possible only after 100+ years of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the worldwide defeat of capitalism. You cannot judge 'genuine communism' based on conditions which have not yet taken place. Capitalism can be defeated. It's the height of hubris to think it is invincible.

Zmaj I'm embarassed that you said what I said so much more economically.

"Capitalism tells workers to start looking out for their own interests"

Which is why some eastern European countries implemented laws banning the 'incitement of class hatreds'. And why the ruling class counts on workers voting for anti-labor parties in order to stay in power. Nothing about capitalism is in the workers' interests. That's abundantly clear by the overwhelming nostalgia most people feel in post-communist countries.

Exactly, gregoire, that's the same point made by Houllebecq. If forced to, capitalism will adopt even the rhetoric of communism. "Capitalismus sum et humani nihil a me alienum puto.", to misquote Terence :)

Capitalism is dead and dying. Try preserving the system without living off generations of debt. It can't be done. Capitalism has outlived its utility.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/croat-lawsuit-against-slovenia-bank-rejected

Probably because Eastern European political culture is authoritarian, Putin. Though Putin, Zmaj, the premise of capitalism is self-interest - look out for yourself. Though yes, Zmaj, capitalism has a fabulous ability to utilize the antagonisms that it generates. In part this is why I initially said that Marxism is a fantasy version of capitalism. The two are so interwoven, at this point, that Marxism can't escape the orbit of capitalism any longer. But I don't think that makes capitalism inevitable, and it is certainly possible that something could displace capitalism. Going back to the original post about Marxism being a project and a political commitment, I firmly agree that capitalism is an important ethical and humanitarian project to which we must give our fullest effort.

Debt is just a dirty word for credit.

I am a capitalist, nothing that is human is alien to me?

Ethical, you can't simultaneously count on the vileness and greed of human nature and then call an economic system pandering to human greed 'ethical'.

"Probably because Eastern European political culture is authoritarian, Putin. "

Or probably because their living standards plummeted and they're now ruled by various forms of the mafia. At least under socialism they had a political culture in which people expressed solidarity with each other, instead of this anti-social individualism which you think is part and parcel to human nature.

I don't get why you people on one hand claim that Marxism is a fantasy system that cannot work in practice when pure capitalism hasn't existed anywhere in the world. At best, everywhere is a mixed market economy. So which system is fantastical again?

Also, we never touched on the many virtues of Marxism as a tool. Having studied literature, I know that Marxist literary theory has produced many invaluable insights. Moreover, almost every philosopher in the 20th century has creatively used this or that aspect of Marxism. Sadly, it has been tainted with the systems that abused Marx's ideas, just like Nietzsche has been tainted by some idiots that didn't know how to read him properly.

Self interest and greed are not the same thing, though of course they can overlap. Self interest is a framework for people to adopt. Greed is a characteristic of unethical people. Can capitalism be an ethical project while unethical people simultaneously adopt it as their own? Of course, just as with Marxism as an ethical project which saw unethical people adopt it as their own.

Regarding the fantasy, I not saying that it was some sort of fabrication or a la-la land flight of fancy, merely that it was developed by way of exploring the unconscious associations which allowed capitalism to function, back in the mid-1800s - ie, Marx analyzed capitalist relations, and then proposed a reordering of those relations (labor, scarcity, production, all the terms that constitute Marxist analysis, the discourse itself). The reordering called Marxism is thus ultimately tethered to the unconscious building blocks of capitalism itself. And, for it's part, capitalism appropriated Marxist discourse in many cases and thus, yes, pure capitalism hasn't existed because its a mixed market economy. But when I say capitalism I mean the actually existing system rather than some Ideal.

Agreed, Marxist epistemology is like a succulent fruit compared to the thin gruel of Marxist economics...

"Agreed, Marxist epistemology is like a succulent fruit compared to the thin gruel of Marxist economics..."

Bastardized academic do-nothing 'neo-Marxism' is always given higher respect than the people who actually use it how Marx intended, to change the world, not just talk about it.

Capitalism requires 6.3 billion people to be completely deluded about what their self-interest is, so the idea that capitalism is an 'ethical project' based on self-interest doesn't strike me as compelling at all. The only way you can have a system in which billions toil endlessly while a handful of do-nothing coupon clippers and speculators can make millions & billions is if those billions believe it is 'natural' that they toil in misery for life.

*Shrug* the only thing I would like changed in the world is more capitalization of human affairs, though I have no trouble using Marxism to talk about and understand how best to accomplish this goal.

Well, maybe not the only thing, but broadly speaking.