Ugh, why did this start on Sunday again?

Anyway, considering everyone has an item, I think it's going to be a shitshow.

Item quick reference:

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Killing:
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0-2 Guns
0-2 Fab Guns (backfiring fake guns)
0-2 Pitchforks: Kills self, or ghost can use to kill anyone.

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Protective:
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0-2 Vest (BP): Saves from the first kill.
0-2 Vest (Fab): Doesn't save from the first kill. Peace-of-mind only.
0-2 Hot Air Balloons: Commute.
0-2 First Aid: Doc save at night.
0-2 Fab First Aid: Poison player at night, thinking it's a doc save.

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Investigative:
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0-2 Binoculars: See who visits the targeted player.
0-2 Laptop: Cop scan.

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Utility:
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0-2 Horse Drawn Buggy Wagon: Jail.
0-2 Lightning Rod: Redirect all night actions onto yourself, except anything above
Lightning Rod in order of operations, or the Ghost.
0-2 Notebooks: Friendly Neighbor.
0-2 Holy Symbols: Clear a haunt.
0-2 Vote Flower: Gives you an extra vote.
0 or 2 Walkie talkies: Like the Neighbors from a few games back. Night QT for two people. Ghost can interfere in it somehow.

A shining example of a big post that is 100% useless and unnecessary ^

You consider that a big post? kek.

It's more for me. I typed it up to save to my desktop and figured someone else might have wanted an item cheat sheet.

@Chaqa Fwiw, the fab first aid kit is really a killing item, since it poisons the target.

@darg Rather than merely appealing for others to participate as you've done all game, why don't you share your own thoughts? Is stupidfighter's concession genuine? Is Oztra just stupid, as DO believes, or does he have a secondary agenda as stupidfighter thinks? (As a side note, one need never be concerned about my being "shut up" under pressure is an entirely useless worry).

@RHK as you can see, others (well, Balki) also believes that to hipfire the gun is not worth the potential reward. I don't profess to know this group all that well, but I suspect this sentiment is shared amongst the majority. Do you still believe that there may be elements of the town still cowering in the fear of being shot? What makes you think this? What did you intend when you brought up the topic to begin with?

Still waiting on @Vash and @DO to respond, lest those get buried under new topics, and I notice that @Maniac has entirely dropped off the grid after his initial elan.

@Oztra I will vote when I believe it is time to vote.

The person who I want to focus on right now is bo_sox48. His first comment in the game opens with "@snowy ... concise is bad for reads. Make your posts full of good content, but feel free to scum slip." To ask for someone to scum slip is counterintuitive - anyone mafia who read this line would now be on alert against potential slips had they not been so already. And it seems probable to me that he understands this as well, so I believe this is most likely a false appeal to the town saying that he's on town's side and actively searching for scum.

He follows up by asking who wants to be the co-GM for the next game, which not only has no relevance to the game but may potentially result in the pocketing of a person who is willing to do so.

His next comment had an unsolicited compliment of me: "Snowy was one of the more talkative players despite it being his first game on the site and was quite effective. If I recall correctly, he was fearkilled by mafia at some stage after I was, or at least there was discussion of killing him if he wasn't. He played well. I feel like he is trying too hard so far this game, but we're only a few hours in and I don't often cast judgment that early." as well as an appeal to RHK's expertise on the subject of the ghost.

He tells Oztra that his findings are "decent observations" which anyone can plainly see are not, and then backpedals saying that the second point he makes has merit while he fails to understand the rest. And that in any case his efforts so far seems genuine and towny, and he wishes to encourage this behavior especially coming from a newbie.

Granted, I agree with that final point, but it is evident that bo is attempting to build rapport with several players without necessitating that he form solid opinions on anyone without being able to back out. His alienation of stupidfighter is more probably a soft bus than a genuine inquiry - he brings up that stupidfighter is calling more attention to the gun than Balki ever did (I don't quite agree) and that Balki's actions are sensible while his are not. Not, as I observe, how he just straight up admitted to being scum for several posts in a row. One would imagine any genuine investigation into stupidfighter would begin there, with the Balki topic as a mere side note.

His last comment is advice to stupid on how to play the game, telling him to defend himself rather than walk away.

All of this paints a rather ominous picture.

Chaqa's post does seem unnecessary filler. Why complain about when the game started? Preempting excuses as to why your behavior is not up to standards is scum indicative. Not to mention his first post was made two minutes into the game, and now this is the first time he has talked since. If Sunday start were so inconvenient for him, how was he so quick on the take to begin the game?

Perhaps the sentiment he unintentionally conveyed was that he did not have time to properly prepare himself for the game, which would not ordinarily be an inconvenience unless he had something to hide and carefully plan out his actions.

@chaqa what do you think about this?

I think we've never started these on Sundays is all. I was on the forum putting in orders and I got a role PM, so I posted. Not much to it.

@snowy... because I don't generally make mountains out of mole hills, and we have mostly molehills so far. I will state conclusions as I make them. I don't find that "thinking out loud" is conducive for me finding scum. Regarding your particular questions, however, I think that stupidfighter believed he was more caught than he thought, and conceded in haste. I think that Ostra is feeling the pressure to post SOMETHING, and so is 'thinking out loud.' Whether that pressure is because he is scum, or because he is new, or because he has some other factor remains to be seen.

I also don't find Chaqa's post reason to conclude an alignment.

What does stupidfighter's vote on Oztra mean in the light of stupid's scumclaim? Or in the light of Oztra's shade?

@bo: Without actually going back and reading the game in depth, the ghost role was largely the same, save the change I mentioned. I was overly focused on the ghost, and we got him, but then still lost when I threw the game with a cop gambit on MF. You subbed and won as scum iirc.

@Snowy: I think that the chance is/was there. I think the dialogue since then has decreased the chance of that by a lot. Do I believe that may have given some people some pause and decreased the amount of joke posting, along with the sheer amount of randomness in the setup.

On the topic of decreased joking around, it could also be possible that everyone and their mother having an item means that people are falling back to a lurk-y PR meta.

@snowy.
It is the first time I play MAFIA. It is crazy how many messages were already posted. By now, I feel it really hard to identify Town members from Mafia members just by reading the posts, but I feel confident I will learn fast. Maybe I can reach some meaningful insights by myself along the game.

Snowy, if you think you can read me after 4 pages, you're delusional. I was thinking that if you are scum you would be focusing on Oztra here, though, so the wider focus is appreciated. Still, there are very easy explanations for everything I have said thus far, but of course you already have your own explanations in mind, and that's fine. Feel free to ruminate on them further, so long as you eventually recognize that older and wiser players such as myself are by no means going to drop any major tells in the first few pages regardless of the role drawn.

Balduran, that's an interesting take on the items causing people to lurk. Can you explain that further?

@bo Basically, sub-consciously or otherwise, it's possible every towny with a gun is acting like they're a vig, and I've know a number of vigs to lurk to avoid NKs. The same for med kits thinking they're doctors, jailors, etc. Even though the items are limited use (generally) people might still act like they're PRs. Which would be kind of nice, since makes the town PRs harder to find, lowering discussion aside.

Now, don't misconstrue this as excusing lurking entirely, it's just a possible explanation. Ideally, people would be participating regardless of their item/role/lack of either.

When everyone has an item, no one does. We're all just special snowflakes in a blizzard.

Poetic Chaqa.
I don't think people will lurk more because of the items. Lurkers will lurk and big talkers will talk a lot. Considering the items can be haunted and that Mafia have an Item thief, I expect people starting to use them in the next days (maybe not the pitchforks).

That's the first time I've been called a special snowflake.

I'm going to ##vote stupidfighter. The fact that you hid when some pressure was put on you is terrible town play. It looks like you just want it all to blow over and get lost in the first few pages.

If you are actually town, you should come back and explain what that weird confession of scum was about. Force people to push you so that you actually start getting people to talk. Connections early can be useful late game - and you slipping out is decreasing the opportunity for the town to build connections between those either attacking or defending you.

@darg if most of the discussion thus far have been molehills, does that imply that some have been alignment indicative? If so, I should hope to hear you share your thoughts on those.

As to stupidfighter's vote on Oztra, if stupid is indeed scum it seems less likely that Oztra is. At any rate, this would validate my initial read on the two should we flip stupid. But stupidfighter's guilt seems non-obvious to me, and it's curious why so many people are leaping to his vote. It's also of interest that two of the three votes are declared pressure votes (rivera and Tom), rather than an "I think this guy is scum let's lynch him" votes. At least, if I am interpreting rivera's intrepid English correctly.

@bo_sox as you say, perhaps some of you here are so powerful and so wise that it would be wasted effort to even try to figure you out so early. But I did not hear such protests when brainbomb and goldfinger were on the block in M27 (and then you died so I have no further information on you). So then, who among us is so immune to early determinations? If I made a similar case on any given player in this game, for whom would you dismiss it as being above such simple tells and for whom would you take it seriously? Or is this a unique classification of "old and wise" player base which applies solely to yourself? I would hear names from you, if you are willing to speak them.

It also seems to be that, young and foolish padawan that I am, I would greatly benefit from your insight as to what "easy explanations" exist for your behavior which I have clearly failed to recognize.

One contends that this attitude mirrors that of Hellenic Riot from last game. As Balduran endlessly whinged upon to me, the "I am better than you and thus have no need to justify my actions and opinions" was characteristic of his play, and we all know what that resulted in. Dismissive rather than logical, and using vagueness and emotional appeals in reason's stead.

So please tell me what these easy explanations are.

@Balduran the same question I asked RHK, the essence of which he seems to have missed - I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment. But what information have you gained by sharing this insight, and receiving responses? What motivated you to speak of it in the first place? Did you hope to avoid mislynches on odd lurkers whose behavior you felt could be explained by this? Or perhaps you hoped to encourage the lurkers to participate more? Was it just something you said without much thought?

@RHK I don't want to harp on the gun subject too much, but this is what I was trying to ask you as well.

"One contends that this attitude mirrors that of Hellenic Riot from last game"

You want to use logic yet a basis you have for bo being scummy is that his play reminds you of HR last game? That doesn't seem logical. I'll let you in on a secret - both HR and bo have massive egos.

You critique bosox for not elaborating on his statements.
In the same post you brush off the fact that stupid literally left the thread to avoid answering questions. How is that any different?

The contention was that someone who behaves in such a way that HR embodied last game is likely scum. As I've said, dismissive and emotional instead of using reason. Do you think this is not indicative of scum? I'm not sure how this fails to be logical. Perhaps you can explain this to me, as I'm not seeing it.

And you seem to have missed the several comments I made where I think stupid and bo_sox may be scum together, and in any case stupidfighter is likely scum. That his being scum is non-obvious does not mean he is not scummy to begin with.

@snowy "whinged"....Why must you constantly condescend me so?
In response to your question, I speculated about the possible cause to help educate people's reads, and also to state my interpretation so that my fellow town could point out if I'd overlooked something. Mostly I posted it because I was asked to elaborate, and figured more information/explanation=better. Assuming you were talking about the item=PR lurking point I made, that is. If you meant something else, which post?

I think dismissive and emotional instead of reason can be scum indicative, yes. I just find it a bit odd that you related it to HR's play from last game (which can be viewed as more of an emotional argument - HR almost snuck through last game and bo plays the same, so he must be scum).

I'll agree with your second point though regarding it being non-obvious. I just don't understand why its so curious that people are leaping to his vote, if you indeed find him scummy. What is so curious about it?

@Bald the truth is an absolute defense. And that is in fact what I meant. Have you formed any new thoughts since?

@Tom the curiosity lies in how easy of a lynch this would be. Stupid just claimed mafia and declared silence. So in applying pressure to him and him alone, you and rivera neglect the opportunity to investigate all the other players remaining in the game. While far too early to make such assessments, if nothing changes one might imagine stupidfighter being fed the rope at the end of the day, and so the opportunity to gather new information until then is diminished.

There are four people who have yet to make a post, and several who did may as well have made none. It is not so much to say that pressuring stupid is a bad idea as you don't seem to be expending the effort to investigate others in the interim. It is that lack of inquisitive spirit which interests me.

And bo does not play the same as HR. They have a common behavior pattern which I pointed out.

Incidentally, was it Floodgates you subbed in for? My list is missing your name.

Correct - I'm in for Floodgates.

I'm still waiting for an answer for Moscow. I ask questions as I come across information I want clarification on. In my first game I focused much too specifically on certain people, and I don't aim to fall down that trap again - so I apologize if it seems that way.

I can't investigate people who have not posted yet - not sure what you want me to do there. I'd rather vote for the person who says they are scummy and then leaves when asked questions than the person who may have not logged in yet.

There is plenty of time for me to question the other folks as more content filters in.

Hey @ Tom thanks for writing me.

Last night the only person with questions for me was Bo. Some of those were simple ridicule, with question marks. The rest were so leading they might as well have been rhetorical.

DO especially and a couple others to a lesser degree were calling me mafia but didn't have much to directly ask. Dargoyel did ask "was stupidfighter's confession real" but I don't think he was addressing me. Rather Dargoyel appeared to want the opinions of the other players.

My scum claim was mostly exasperated sarcasm, but I also thought it would keep DO talking long enough to explain how Oztra's play was so obviously devoid of potential scum motivation. My leaving the thread was mostly the same, I had to go to sleep anyway(it was like 2 or 3 am and I go to work at 7) and at least it gave people something to talk about that wasn't stupid item bullshit.

Those of you who have played with me in the past know I tend to play fast and loose, say idiotic stuff and come into the cross-hairs. You may also recall I fight tooth and nail to stay alive when push comes to shove. I won't lurk, won't hedge, won't wait and see if my hunches are right before posting wild accusations, and ultimately won't have the right answers because I'm honestly not the best at this game. I find it thoroughly amusing to play, if a tad stressful at times. But I never did have a knack for figuring the damned thing out.