Y2K, I'm really suspect of including PJ in that list, hence my vote on him.

And also, @ghug,

Yes, bo's lynching was entirely, 100% because of me. Ya'll just don't like to accept the *fact* that a guy that doesn't talk much realized Bo was a reptilian.

Guys, how is Maniac not scum? I dont understand how or why a townie would fake claim to be the cop.

PJ and Maniac both advocated for keeping bo_sox alive in a situation where I strongly disagree that it would've been pro-human to do so. Since bo was lizard, and his fellow lizard might've already been busing him, I don't know that his teammate would try to make this play, but it absolutely makes sense for the real mutant to do so. I think Maniac's mad enough to possible be making the play he says he is, but either setting up, or fabricating his little breadcrumbs ahead of time seems to me a pretty scummy ploy, which is why I put him at my number 2 potential mutant.

As for the lizard, I don't know, ghug's case on guak as lizard makes sense to me, and I think it's certainly plausible. If guak were lizard, I also think it likely that he would've RB'd ghug, either based on his team simply thinking he was vigilante (as bo_sox suggested) or based on the reads ghug got out prior to the end of the night.

Still, as with ghug's reads, I think PJ presents us with the best chance of getting a good lynch today, especially if ghug wasn't RB'd. If he was, then I'd suggest Maniac as potential target #2, and guak as #3.

Pending further reactions, that might be subject to change, but I think that's our best bet at the moment.

"I dont understand how or why a townie would fake claim to be the cop."

I don't think it's a good play for the individual townie involved, but it could help the human side as a whole, and I think Maniac's shown a tendency to make plays that would fit in with the needed mindset to pull such a scheme off. But I also think it's possible that he set up his little cop trail things as mutant specifically to use a cop claim to delay his death by an additional round. Still, I think ghug was right in thinking that PJ seems like a more certain choice.

I'm heading out now, but rest assured I will be doing heavy analysis of the situation tomorrow.

@everyone: boy this really sucked. What an awful night, two lost power roles. Poor job doc, why wouldn't you save ghug or krellin? I think krellin's role claim on D1 and ghug's case against bosox made them the only good save choices for the night. But whatever, please stay hidden and avoid revealing your role until there is only three people left. Also, we should start looking at krellin's reads for any hints on who he may have scanned.

@y2k: I will address ghug's case in a coming post. I am quite certain all of it is WIFOM, as I am innocent, but I need to research the thread to properly defend myself. I can say that he made a blatant error in his reads when he said krellin could still be SK even though krellin had been roleblocked on a night with three deaths, but I need to reread to show that he made similar errors on his reads of me. I know I started suspecting bo way before ghug built his case against him, and it was my distrust of ghug after the Squigs situation that actually made me back off somehow from him. What I am not sure is if ghug chose to ignore my suspicions on bo or if I did not made them clear. I guess that for our sake I hope I did because if not I won't be able to prove that his case was off and there will be one more townie headed for a certain death. Anyway, I still stand by my solid scum read of maniac, and I believe everyone should vote for their own top scum reads unless there is an actual need for a different vote. I also tend to believe that mafia would had bused bosox when such an overwhelming mob of angry people was chasing him, but welll that is all WIFOM I guess. Anyway, I will reread and address all of ghug's points tonightm while trying to find even more evidence that Maniac is scum.

@Maniac: how you manage to entrench yourself as #1 scum is amazing. That night fakeclaim was the last straw. @everyone: Maniac has actually been breadcrumbing a fake claim throughout the whole night! It really does not get any scummier than that. Only a mutant or a lizard could possibly plan ahead for a fake claim. It makes no sense at all for a vanilla townie to plan a fakeclaim at some point in the game. ##VOTE Maniac.

guak, you're making a mistake just like ghug's when you think you can go back and look for a hint of a scan. There were 3 kills in night 1, meaning none of the kill roles were role blocked, and none of them hit a doc save. Then, early on day 2, krellin claimed that he had been blocked. If that claim were false, then it'd be highly likely that he's lizard. Now that we're 100% sure he was cop/agent all along, then we also know that he couldn't possibly have gotten a scan off, because there's no way a cop/agent would fake a RB claim. He may have gotten a scan tonight, but he was killed and had no way to share what he may have learned. But if HE was blocked, then that means ghug's shot wasn't, and it has to have run into the mutant's defenses. And it seems to me like ghug would've shot for PJ judging by his reads and the fact that he could've claimed his role after his second shot.

I grant that Maniac is hella suspect right now, but I think he might just be crazy enough to have thought that this would've been a good idea. We just don't know right now, and I think PJ is a safer lynch target at this point.

@WD: You are completely right. My mistake. lol the funny thing is that I make the mistake in the same post I point it out. What a mess.

Well, I have been arguing for pj as one of y top scum reads for a while now, and I do believe Maniac may be just enough of a Maniac to pull a town fake claim. But planning a fake claim since the beginning of the game seems a bit of a stretch even for him. As far as I am concerned the last two scum are very likely in the group of pj, ILN and Maniac. I have started to retreat on my ILN accusation since he voted bosox early and did not switch at any point. He seems more like a newbie having fun than scum. He could had been coached during night 1 by uclabb however, so I cannot clear him. You and y2k are as far as I am concerned top town reads for me, and if one of you is the mutant, then my hat is off to either of you for fooling us so thoroughly.

I will make sure I look at pj with more scrutiny when I reread. So, I am going to do three things now: support my case against maniac, build a stronger pj case, and respond to ghug's accusations against me.

By the way, whoever was visited by the doc should probably say so. Given that ghug made it quite clear in his last post that he was targetting pj, if pj was not visited by the doc then he has to be the mutant.

1st ghug point: Initial reads are highly hedged, but it’s also page 4, so they kind of have to be.

I think there is nothing to argue here as it is page 4 and I was the first one to actually post some reads. I do not hedge on later reads so this is basically a 'big picture' manipulation analysis by ghug. Also worth noting, I call out uclabb for his lame WIFOM posts and mention this is a scum tell. bosox on the other hand later tried to revive the WIFOM conversation knowing that it will derail attention from scumhunting. I also make a reference to uclabb's possible attempt at mafia manipulation through WIFOM when he speaks about the town agreeing on giving weight to nightkills or not. I think mafia would not be the first to point out such suspicious behavior by a mafia partner. I do this in my initial reads and again in p5 when I say to uclabb that his push for consensus worries me because if he is scum he is trying to manipulate the town so he would know how to act during the night.

2nd ghug point: Bo gives him a strong early town read early on, which is the same thing he did with uclabb.
These are bo's p6 reads:
Uclabb: I have to admit that I learned a lot from seeing him play in the last game and I think he's an excellent player. On top of that, he was the first player to really push a discussion back on page one, and we're still talking about WIFOM now. I think we need as many discussion creators as possible and uclabb already proved he is one. Early town read from me.
Guak: I agree with him about the potential for information based on voting on day one, and he's right about this - in M3, the discussion leading up to the vote on day one proved extremely critical in the late stages. I also think he's been happy to call people out and try to bait a reaction, which is a human trait. Town read early on.

So I would like to point out the differences between bosox read on uclabb and the one on myself that ghug is simply selling like they are both the same kind of 'strong town reads'. Notice how bosox has nothing but plaudits for uclabb and really throws some flowers at him. Bo is clearly trying to place his partner in crime in a solid town central position. He actually uses something quite scummy - the WIFOM conversation- to build up his reputation. However, notice that on his read of me he says that he agrees with me becuase I had been in the same page as him in a couple of topics. I would say agreeing is very different from lauding, and shows more a willingness to try to buddy up to a simple town member than anything else. Moreover, ghug's argument was quite tainted from the beginning because he is assuming that bosox would town-read both his mafia buddies as his top two town reads. I know he did not do so because I am innocent, but I also think it is way too risky for any mafia member to raise suspicion upon both his mafia buddies. Imagine an scenario were bo were to die first. Suspicion would soon be raised against his top town reads. Does he really want to give the town a 100% guarantee of catching the second mafia member? Makes no sense from my point of view.

3rd ghug point:
On page 7 he has a scuffle with bo about perceived intention to buddy up, it could just as easily be a townie pointing out something suspicious or scum coaching a mafia buddy. He directs a defense of bo at uclabb after uclabb calls out the same action as scummy.

So basically I am the first to point out that bo did a very scummy thing when he added a PS to his reads where he asked for everyone's opinion on them and ghug is saying that I am coaching bo? A mafia brother would had just waited to see if someone picked it up. Again, ghug manipulates the story in his summary to make it sound very different from what it is. Worth noting that a few posts after mine ghug says to bo 'bo, I have a suggestion for you. Stop caring what others think about your reads. FWIW, I thought they were pretty good, but you're probably smart enough to form those opinions on your own, and allowing others to influence your actions in such a way can really only benefit crafty mafia players who offer to take you under their wing/tail/lizardy body part.' That sounded like coaching too. I guess Squigs was right when he said that ghug tends to read actions as scummy or townie depending on who makes them and not on what the action is. This is the second time that ghug paints the fact that I was the first to point out scummy behavior from actual scum as evidence that I am also scum. I think this is quite a reach. Also, ghug says uclabb calls out the same action as scummy, but he does so two pages later, well after me, Squigs and ghug himself all pointed it out which makes it far more likely mafia behavior than being the first to do so.

4th ghug point:
On page 10, bo makes a judgement call to lump guak with the non-lurkers rather than the lurkers based on the quality of his posts. On his reads list during the night, he has a category titled “Slight Scum (Cannot quite put my finger around why they are suspicious to me, but they stand out a little)” containing only bo and uclabb. Bo and uclabb both list him as their highest townread during the night. Everyone else seemed to be reading hum as null, so it strikes me as odd that they would both go out on a limb to townread him.

More fact manipulation here. First, I was in the middle of the pack in amount of posts by this time, and most of my posts had been long ones. bo also keeps ghug off the lurker list even though he had less posts and does the same with pj and y2k. More importantly, ghug says that everyone was reading me as null and that it is odd that both uclabb and bosox would townread me. He also says that the way bosox lumps me with the nonlurkers is supicious because of the quality of my posts. Actually before p10 I was being town read by a lot of people. On p8 Squigs reads me as top town, well before this happened. Also on p8, pj gives me a town lean. More on p8, semck gives me a slight town lean and y2k says I am likely town. So far the only null read of myself I have seen is precisely ghug's. Further ahead WD also null reads me, but it is certainly not everyone like ghug mentions in his case. Also worth noting both Squigs and semck mentioned my posts had been quality up until then. bosox simply echoes what the town had been feeling up until then. I would hardly call this 'going out on a limb'. Also, on page 10 I call out uclabb as potential mafia based on his reads from p9 where his top suspects were krellin, Squigs, bo, and y2k because he was pursuing the Day 1 lynch of the most helpful players until then, which seemed like a scummy thing. Finally, would I be so blatant as to place both uclabb and bosox in a separate category of their own if I were mafia? They just both happened to be slightly suspicious to me at the time but I did not have enough time on my hands to research the thread at the time and point out the reasons why. Also, regarding uclabb's reads:

Night 1 uclabb scum list:
krellin
y2k
bo_sox
semck
Chaqa
Warden
ghug
ILN
PJM
Maniac
guak

The fact that I am top town is not quite as surprising as seeing Maniac, pj and ILN as #2,3, and 4. Many people were reading me as town, but hardly anyone was reading these three as town.

Bo's reads:
Scum -
Chaqa
Krellin
Uclabb
Y2K
WD (very slight)
Null -
Maniac
Ghug
ILN
Town -
Semck
PJ
Guak

Notice pj being town read. Again, I had been town read by many people, pj only by uclabb and bo. Likewise, notice that uclabb and bosox both changed each others reads and placed each other in the scum list while they left me as top town. I am pretty sure that they just wanted to buddy up to me because I had suspected each of them during Day 1 and knew I was being townread by a lot of people.

5th ghug point:
When uclabb flips, bo clears guak based on uclabb’s read of him. Again reads bo as slight scum.

Many people did this, the first one who implied it was WD. I actually said that they shouldn't because it is a WIFOM argument. Accusing me because I was a top town read by both uclabb and bo is the same as accusing y2k because he was amongst both bo's and uclabb's top scum. It is all WIFOM and depends on the strategy mafia adopted. I think my previous explanation works for this point too so I won't elaborate further unless any of you needs me to explain how this is just wild guessing.

6th ghug point:
He says this on page 27, “@everyone: still around 24 hours to go, how about giving bo a small break. I agree he is a very interesting choice for a hanging, but let's not get stuck all day on him. We should try to talk about others too. I still think ILN is being terribly scummy, and I still cannot bring myself to trust ghug after he chose to ignore Squigs defense and went after him so hard. In fact, the main reason the bo lynch is not convincing me is that it was originally led by ghug.” He’s trying to undermine the case against bo based on his scumread of me, which would be flawed enough if his scumread of me weren’t based entirely on my being wrong, which is a very town thing to be.

Alright there are two things two consider regarding this post. First that I had bo as slight scum in my reads before ghug made his case against bo along with ghug and pj and that I had already accused ILN and Maniac many times and both had failed to address or at least adequately address the points against me, so there was no reason for me to feel more strongly about bo than any of these two. Second, that even after finding certain scum the town needs to discuss other players because there are still two more scum out there and the only way to find them is through talking. With this post I did not defend bo, but rather I promoted further discussion and more case-building. I did think that there was a solid chance that bo was scum, but thought the same of ghug after his gungho push on Squigs and his late entry due to personal reasons. I was way more certain that Maniac was scum at the time, and still believe he is scum. I also explain to ghug in p30 that he misinterpreted my words by thinking I was not willing to vote bo because he had built the case and that I just wanted to double check to see if he got the facts right as I remembered seeing some manipulation in his case against Squigs.

7th ghug point:
He accused pj of saying he was willing to vote bo without reasoning in the same post. On page 30, “I will move my vote to bo if the Maniac wagon does not pick up strenght as he is a very close second.” This is a nice way to set up a bus when your teammate is under pressure without actually adding strength to the wagon. He also never showed back up to change his vote, seemingly returning right after the phase ended. The lurking combined with the defense of bo makes me quite suspicious, and I don’t think that uclabb and bo townreading him was as conclusive as I thought it was.

The lurking is a pretty lame accusation because for how little time I had had I had managed to be somewhat active. Much more than others at least. Plus, in the same post in p30 I explain my reasons and said that I would be busy for the rest of the week and promised more time investment over the weekend (happening right now). Regarding my words, gjug takes them out of context to interpret them in the way that suits him best. Here are my p30 reads:

Maniac: keeps acting like a maniac. Do not really understand why he is still talking about his wild claim, but what worries me the most is that he showed reluctace to post his top scum read before accusing y2k. That is even scummier than pj's comment I mentioned a while ago. And this is just the tip of the iceberg with Maniac. His crazy stunts and wild reads are quite different fro the maniac from last game when he made really crappy method proposals but gave very coherent reads. Also, taking back his accusation of y2k and WD as 'reaction tests' makes me think that he realized there was no one joining his wagon and wanted to avoid association to his accusations. Good ol' townies like myself never show reluctance to accuse others of being scum while trying to defend said scummy move with a crazy cop theory and will not 'withdraw accusations' by explaining they were all part of a solid plan, but rather we will simply decide we buy a defense and change our minds. ##VOTE Maniac. Strong mutant chance too based on reasons explained in previous posts.

bosox: I think I am convinced of his potential guilt. As I reread I noticed that the cases by WD and ghug againt him are quite tight. I will move my vote to bo if the Maniac wagon does not pick up strenght as he is a very close second. What really sets off my alarms here though is that he has not even bothered to defend himself lately. I think someone said that he was trying to hide and hope the pressure goes away and I think that is quite a scummy stratgy as any self-respecting townie would try to defend himself. I initially thought bo could be town stepping his game up from the last one, but now I am really understanding his suspicious behavior.

I think I made it perfectly clear that I was convinced of his guilt and actually added information to the accusations. I was still more convinced of Maniac's guillt which is why I voted Maniac. Either way bosox already has a very strong wagon on him, and I intended to return in time to see if my vote needed to be changed. I did not manage to return in time because I was held up at work, but I still stand by my decision to vote for Maniac who was then and still is my top scum read.

If there are any more questions I will gladly address them. I will post my cases against pj, ILN and Maniac soon. I think Maniac's is the most convincing, but it is just my opinion so I will like to think what others think of them.

The Case Against ILN:
There are some old matter that were never properly addressed like his *human* instincts comment and his fixation on krellin.

Yet, I have here this pair of beauties posted by bosox

on p10 when the ILN wagon was picking up steam.

He's brand new, don't lynch him on day one. Have some humanity (pun intended)...

and on p11:

I don't think voting for a lurker on day one does us any good, so if we end up choosing to target lurkers with our lynch, I probably won't take part until another day. It'd be much better if the serious lurkers could just be modkills so we don't have to waste our only go at scum in the day.

and on p12:

I think ILN is just a player going through the ups and downs of the first day of his first game. To clarify, I think he's got a lot to work on. He hasn't posted enough, obviously, and the argument he just made against krellin frankly isn't good. There are plenty of holes, and it looks like he's using his vote as a way of defending himself rather than scumhunting, which is a mistake that he's going to carry for however long this game lasts for him. Still, I don't think he's doing this because he's scum but because it's a little bit overwhelming to take an accusation so quickly from krellin of all people, who, in case you've never met him, tends to be very thorough and persistent. After M3, where I replaced Dr. O and had to try to fix the shitty position he put himself in, I sympathize with ILN because this is exactly what just happened to me weeks ago, and I believe that the moves he's making are not scum tells but him trying to work out what he needs to do. We should be giving him a shot.

Looks like bosox really put an effort into convincing everyone to give ILN some leeway.

pj case:

p4: Uclabb - as always dominating conversation and tactics early. Is he trying to put himself in the same position as PE, centre of the group and thereby securing the ability to try and manipulate people into where he wants? Again I think Uclabb is a very intelligent player, he's not wrong - he's had some very clear reads in the last few games (not that its usually helped him) and I think he certainly bears listening to. The concern is exactly like PE gives him an ideal background to be Mafia and finally he's not kidding about how angry he gets about WIFOM.
p8: pj pushes the case against krellin, who was also a favorite suspect for a lynch by both uclabb and bosox.
p8: pj reads on uclabb and bosox are laudatory. He hedges on uclabb but still manages to talk him up by saying how he is such a central, dominant player.

Bo Sox – Much better than last game, keen to play and even if perhaps not on the money yet, definitely not lurking and making an effort. Slight town lean.
Uclabb – Stand by exactly what I said previously, this guy likes to be centre of the group. Nothing right now yells out at me whether he’s scummy or not but he’s certainly a dominating character. I disagree with him regarding the last minute vote switching for similar reasons to Maniac. As Mafia last time our biggest fuck-up’s came when we were put under the pressure by the last minute throw rounds. However I do agree with his pushing on Krellin who is my highest scum read at the moment

p9: uclabb places pj as one of his top town reads based on 'not scum telling at all'. He was previously a null read.

p19: (before this post pj had done a good job of eluding further suspicion) pj asks Maniac if he is roleclaiming, bringing up attention to the power role claim 'slip' that came from Maniac.

p25: pj says to krellin:
Uhhhh. Nope cos your still the one for me baby. Even if Bo is my No.2

p28: pj now says:
My throwaway comment last night about voting for Bo was more of a willingness to if no-one else sees what I'm seeing with Krellin. He's my second scum feel so feel comfortable putting a lynch on him

So why the change? It seemed that pj was unwilling to switch his vote even to his numer 2 choice. All of sudden he wants to switch to Bo? At a time when Bo was almost surely going to die... Could be a bus.

p32: pj defends bo after fake roleclaim


Overall, there are some weird interactions that make pj the possible third lizard. I still think WD has a solid point regarding the possibility of pj being mutant. Would really like to know about that doc visit. It would not completely clear him, but it would entrench Maniac as my top scum read.

##Call GM: If the mutant is visited by the doc and targetted in the same turn, does it count as a successful save?

Why Maniac is Top SCUM Read:

Maniac case:

p4: First SCUM post
'##Vote Chaqa because (a) I can't vote for YellowJacket and (b) he has been given a VANilla role he doesn't like ( if he is to be believed) so we should put him out of his misery early. We need vanilla players who love that role.

When is the deadline btw?

Love the concept of finding mutants.'

These quote makes me think on of two things: That the interest shown in killing only mutants is a lizard slip, or that it is a mutant playing a game of WIFOM planting the seeds to build a solid defense of why he is not the mutant in the distant future. Either way, that is not a town comment.

p5: Maniac's reads. Hedging everywhere. Still early, but my reads that ghug said were scummy because I was hedging were far more opinionated than this.
p8: Maniac starts to push the case against krellin, who was also a favorite suspect for a lynch by both uclabb and bosox.
p8: Maniac suggests the vig should take out the lurkers. At this point of the game both bosox and uclabb were among the top three most active players. This means that if Maniac is mafia he knows there are no mafia lurking.
p8: Maniac says his tag voting idea was not meant to be taken seriously. In M3 he stood by his terrible ideas even though everyone criticized them. This sudden selfconsciousness that he would be read as scummy for proposing tag voting is even scummier.
p9: Up until this point bo and Maniac had had a silly disagreement going on. They make up in p9 and buddy up.
p10: Maniac insists on killing krellin and says:

'I think our chances of hitting non-human are low too. At this stage we are not going for a no-lynch. The only thing we can do is get rid of non-team players. I reiterate that I'm willing to go one-on-one with Krellin. I think he is either reptilian or a bad team player. If he's innocent, and I get him shot, I won't weep.'

p13: Another cryptic Maniac message. I think his choice of words could indicate that he is non-human. His insistence that killing a bad townie is still a good play is terribly scummy.

'@chaqa -I'll type this slowly as I figure you don't read too quick.

I don't think day one has gone well for the govt. There are no certain non- humans we can confidently shoot. I'll still try to shoot non- humans but if I shoot a govt official who I think hasn't help us find the non- humans, then so be it. Non-humans and those who don't help govt are not necessarily different species.'

p22: bo's read on Maniac looks like he is lauding him much like what bo did with uclabb early on. Very curious when considering that they were at each other's throats early on with their silly spat:

'Maniac: If you are in fact a power role and a kill role, props to you. Even if it was a slip-claim, you made a great decision regardless of who you hit and we need you around right now. If you aren't a power role, I guess that post is working to your advantage, but I see you as town-ish anyway because you discuss and do a good job remaining flexible but not too reactionary, and it's difficult to balance between the two but you do it well.'

p25-27: Maniac is more concerned about potentially clearing townies than hunting for scum.

p27: Maniac accuses y2k, who had been uclabb's and bososx preferred target for some time. Also makes a pretty lame case against WD.

p29: Maniac says his case against y2k and WD were a bluff.

p31: Maniac argues for keeping bo around after fakeclaim

Overall, Maniac's game has been one scum read after another. I feel I have started to get some tunnel vision here, but he just keeps having scummy behavior. He has also failed to produce the brilliant reads he gave in M3, so basically he has not been helpful in procedural matters nor in scumhunting. The one thing he has done pretty good is create chaos, which I think benefits the mutant and lizard much more than town.

Few really important points.

Doc shouldn't role claim yet.

@govt officials incl the doc - after my post last night did you believe I was the cop? Don't answer on here, just answer to yourself.

I tried to have fun and play the role of a bodyguard. My main motivation was losing the Vig early in my first game. If I could set myself up as a target, then there would be more chance our power roles would survive. I was purposely obtuse in my breadcrumbs early on. I was a little more obvious with my call for the doctor. That breadcrumb may have missed an individual but three guys analysis in everything in the mafia thread may have picked it up. If so, perhaps I would've died night 1, I was thinking of dropping another subtle hint in n1. Then krellin role claimed. I now had to play the "no I'm Spartacus" role. Stepping forward to protect the main guy. My played hint had to now be a massive firework. Krellin actually says later that a good govt playr should fake role claim after a role claim.

I tried hard last night to ensure I was a target, but told doc not to bother saving me. I suggested to the doc that he either save himself or Ghug.

Whilst wishing to draw non-human fire and roadblock, I was also keen to tell Vig that he shouldn't waste his shot on me.

I will hold fire with any info I have as regards the doctor and if I was saved, attempted saved or roleblocked.

Whilst I don't think it is a good idea for doc to role claim, if he did I will vote whichever way he does. Even if I think he's wrong.

The reptile has two weapons that can hurt us, the roleblock can prevent doc saving himself. The sk only has a kill role. Therefore in order to give doc best chance of staying alive, we need to find reptile today.

In absense of doc claim. I will vote for ghug's top reptile read.

## vote Guak

Nice job OMGUSing Maniac. I already posted my defense to ghug's accusations. You obviously did not bother to read it. Whatever, try and kill me. You will regret it when I flip vanilla and the town loses... or maybe you won't since you are scum.

I will read your rebuttal of ghug's case. Thing is we know that Ghug is human, and we don't know what you are. As such Ghug case carries more credence.

I appreciate that my bodyguard play didn't work out well. But we shouldn't judge a play only on the result. After the game when the mafia thread is opened we will know if it had any impact.

Re: my brilliant insights. We won't know if my reads on WD or y2 are brilliant until the end. I followed the evidence and cleared krellin, the evidence leads where the evidence leads. I missed Bo, mainly because I read too deeply into a comment he made, something like 'I must be careful what I say'. I thought he'd picked up my breadcrumb, fact he didn't push on me at all led me to believe he was town. I was wrong.

There is no way I will survive this game, which is fine, my win on has always been to see at least one govt guy survive and rebuild this nation. If we hit mafia this turn I will gladly #vote maniac and #vote end next turn. Even if you guys think I'm the sk you must, must must still find mafia this turn.

Whilst I will be doing a full re-read and analysis based on the recent deaths, I will still be voting with the doc (if known) or based on ghug's list.

My rebuttal of Guak’s case.

Pg 4 – Guak picks up on my comment “Love the concept of finding mutants” This is bad wording. I should have used the more cumbersome ‘non-humans’ which I have used since. The usual generic term we all use, “scum” wouldn’t have made sense in my comment “I love the concept of finding scum”. Whilst Guak and others are prob correct to pick up on my phraseology, I’m not only guy to mix up words. Just before Bo dies Ghug says “How can you still think he's scum after what he just said?” After bo dies Ghug corrects himself to say he meant ‘Mutant’. Sometimes slips are innocent slips.

Pg 5 – Guak accuses me of hedging. I stand accused. I made the point earlier, what would you sooner me do. If I see two govt indicators and one non-human indicator should I only mention the two govt indicators? I didn’t hide my hedging in the text. I laid it out clearly what my thoughts were at the time.

Pg 8 – Guak says, rightly, I advocate vig shooting lurkers. His case is that as Uclabb and Bo were big posters that I was trying to protect them. I advocate shooting lurkers because it helps discourage lurking (which is bad for govt). I’m consistently trying to call people out and agitating to get info. We should all do more of this, not less.

Pg 8 – Guak highlights my inspired tag-voting idea. Here is the context:

pjmansfield99 (191 )
Sun 12 PM
+1 (+2)
@Maniac - out of curiousity which of your 3 posts, gains you an A+ for quality? Not got any good processes for us to change this time?
Maniac (580 )
Sun 02 PM
I was thinking of a system where we all have to tag vote. Ie I vote 1st then tag you, you vote and tag someone else else and we can keep going. But I think I'll keep it to myself as all my other super suggestions last time were too far ahead of their time for you guys to appreciate.


Note to self: Stop having fun when you’re playing games.

Pg 9 – Guak refers to my attack on Bo for lying. I had picked up on something stupid and pushed to get a reaction. Bo had answered. This is how the game is played. We pick up on the tiniest thing and see if it flies. Sometimes it gains traction, sometimes the reaction is more telling, sometimes it dies.

Pg 13 – Guar highlights that I won’t weep if we kill a townie. Here is my quote.

'@chaqa -I'll type this slowly as I figure you don't read too quick.

I don't think day one has gone well for the govt. There are no certain non- humans we can confidently shoot. I'll still try to shoot non- humans but if I shoot a govt official who I think hasn't help us find the non- humans, then so be it. Non-humans and those who don't help govt are not necessarily different species.'

I stand by this comment.

Pg 22 – Guak reads into Bo’s comment. In hindsight, I think Bo is trying to test my faked roleclaim. He’s digging for info by complimenting me. I didn’t think much about it at the time. Non-humans are always going to attack some guys and praise others as a way of planting false seeds.

Pg 25-27 Guak thinks I’m more concerned about clearing townies. Finding scum can sometimes be a process of elimination. If I get good town reads, I can then concentrate elsewhere. Finding town helps me weigh the evidence that people provide. It also helps me in the close decisions at the end of each day. Oftentimes my #1 guy won’t be in the frame. When I have to shift I weigh up who is voting for whom before making my decision. This is good play, not scummy play.

When I’m shifting through evidence I don’t know where it leads. I follow it regardless. The evidence leads, where the evidence leads. The evidence led me to clearing Krellin.

Pg 29 – where I say may read on WD and Y2 are a bluff. They weren’t a bluff. My thinking has changed about Y2 and WD. I’ll cover that later in my reads.

Pg 31 – Guak raises my defence of Bo after his roleclaim. I was going down the wrong path. My chief suspects for scum were pushing on Bo, I thought we could kick can down road if Bo was SK – I really didn’t think reptile would fake roleclaim to be mutant. In the end I listened to why this roleclaim was different to M3 and voted accordingly. I would have loved more time to consider Bo’s claim.

Guak says I’m lacking my brilliant reads. Maybe it just appears in patches – I don’t know. I do know you can’t hang a man for not being brilliant.

Happy to answer any further queries.

@WD - top of page you say "Maniac, you're trying to say that your whole plan was..." I think you got cut off. What do you need answering?

Ok - first off. I wasn't doc saved last night. No idea who ghug targeted but it wasn't me.

Secondly - ##vote maniac.

This whole scheme of "muddying" the waters and trying to protect the Vig and Cop just rings false to me. It sounds far more like something planned from the beginning. It also ignores the fact that whilst distracting to the Mafia, its actually as distracting to the town as suddenly we've got two power roles in play and no real idea who to believe.

In terms of trying to deliver information to the town in order to correct the misinformation balance all maniac did was throw chaff over both sides. I'm inclined to see him as mutant rather than lizard as it strikes me as a very single minded play, not a team play but either way want to see him lynched.

At PJ - Ghug's post 5 mins from the end said...

"As I said before, I think the better Vig strategy right now is to try to hit the SK so that we can confirm him. Combine that with the fact that I have pj pretty high in the mafia list too and I hope that if the Vig is still online, he’ll consider shooting pj."

You want he to believe he targeted someone else? Yeah right. Your announcement that you weren't doc saved is further proof that you are the SK and had your own protection. The only other senerio is if the remaining reptile roleblocked Ghug, which is possible. If doc was roleblocked, or if anyone remaining was roleblocked, you are the SK.

Doc still shouldn't roleclaim.

My plan was conceived at the outset. I varied it when Krellin roleclaimed - i lit a firework instead of subtling hinting.

I take your point that I've probably confused town more than I've confused the non-humans. A plan shouldn't only be judged on how it panned out. It was a good plan, or so I thought.

Also @PJ -Ghug also says "One thing for the Vig to keep in mind is that shooting the SK (unsuccessfully due to immunity) may be more useful than shooting the final reptile, as the cop has a way of IDing the mafia but no way of IDing the SK."

I'm not buying that he didn't shoot at you. He may have been roleblocked, but he fired at you.

I also think you shot Krellin and breadcrumbed that to the reptile so you would take out different targets.

here is PJ#s breadcrumb to Reptile

"Despite Krellins work on BoSox - I still sense fishy he's my best pick for mutant"

Fishes like breadcrumbs - 'he's my best pick for mutant (to shoot).'

Two more things in my defense. Guak has highlight my use of the word 'Mutant' instead of Non-humans in my very first post. Really - does a reptile or mutant scumslip in his first post?

2nd - I argued case for delaying Bo sox kill even though I knew I was likely next target for that day's lynch. Which reptile tries to throw himself in front of a bullet meant for another reptile when it was obvious that Bo wouldn't last for the rest of the game. There is no role for bodyguards on the reptile team.

@PJ - you describe yourself as flaky. I wasn't sure what that meant so I checked....

"An unreliable person. A procrastinator. A careless or lazy person. Dishonest and doesn't keep to their word." - now i know - thx.

@ Maniac. Yep your right. I just came out and said I'm a lozard

http://i.imgur.com/lVB0pjw.png

Lol. ^