@WD - Re: my case against Y2 - Uclabb's move onto Y2 was a risk. It could've blown up in his face if you / a govt official would have switched. As it was, I was away, krellin was at the gym, PJ was in his PJs and semck had intermated he wasn't going to be around. When vote got tight Uclabb did switch tactics from Vote for Y2 to vote for your top scum read. As I said before my case against you does not revolve around Y2's guilt/innocence and Y2's guilt/innocence does not revolve around you. The fact that both those cases can be stood up together, the fact he seems to defend you and you seem to defend him, the fact that you both seemed to want to get me shit all add to the case.

No, I meant A role with powers/night actions. Yes, I initially included the town powers in that read, but after krellin's claim, there was relatively little risk that were Squigs a town-aligned power he wouldn't claim himself. He made a last-minute claim of vanilla status, but I decided, incorrectly in this case, that doing so still left a significant possibility of him being a scum role. My read was still that he had more than vanilla powers, and if he wasn't a town PR, then that meant to me, that he was a scum. As for my unsurity; krellin's claim was vague and questionable, but even though I suspected Squigs, I wasn't sure enough to write some sort of big case on him. Thus, if I wanted my vote to make anything other than a statement that I thought bo was scummy, at that point in time, I had to vote for Squigs. That's what I mean by being forced to vote Squigs. Up until the claim, I had been reading krellin as more erratic and scummy than I had Squigs. The claim changed things.

But Maniac, uclabb had no way of knowing if I would change my vote to y2k at the last minute. I didn't even know for sure where I would end up for a while. We didn't know enough, and I went with a gut feeling that ended up being wrong. UNLESS I was scum purposfully NOT voting for y2k, then uclabb pushing for a y2k vote is a ridiculous risk, too much so, I think for him to make unless you assume he had backup in the way of another assured scum who would protect the vote from actually killing y2k. (In your argument, that's me.) You haven't proposed any other people who would fit the necessary conditions to ensure y2k's safety from the lynch apart from me, meaning for y2k to be scum, I must be scum. Unless one of the absent players was not in fact absent, I'm the only one that fits your scenario, so I don't think your cases stand independently. Or at least, your y2k case doesn't.

As for the case against me, it lacks the links to other scum unless you support it with the y2k assumptions, even if it has your semantic argument. The FACT is that your cases don't stand up at all unless they're together.

I'm not buying it WD - I'll let others read your posts and decide their own interpretation. One more thing - Why didn't you just unvote or vote for someone other than Y2 and Squigs? We would have lost Capt anyway - gained the info we needed about voting pressure and have a live townie right now?

Oh, so you're suggesting I purposefully make a tie happen at the last second? THAT wouldn't get me lynched on day 2 again AT ALL. I'd rather not have another repeat of that performance, thanks.

We also didn't know for sure that we were losing CaptMeme. We knew one potential replacement had declined, but we had no way of knowing if a second had been found or not, nor did we have anything on which to base a read of CaptMeme's role. You're proposing I make even more assumptions, on information I couldn't have known unless I was scum. The only way such a thing could possibly appear to be a good idea is if you knew AT THE TIME who was innocent, and were working for the town. So no matter what my role it would be a stupid play.

I was only asking why you didn't force a tie and you answered that question.

You've decided to look at my actions in a prism where if I was scum, I'd act exactly as I did, and if I was innocent I would also act exactly as I did because I didn't have any more information than anyone else.

Clearly you've convinced yourself, but you're only digging yourself a hole by pressing this BS argument.

I am putting you under scrutiny - that's true. I've tried to look closely at Krellin and the evidence led me to me partially clearing him. I can't lay a glove on PJ yet. I've made cases against you and Y2 and have tested those theories. That's what we are meant to do. At the same time, I think I've answered any queries others have asked of me.

I don't only look at one bit of evidence - i try to build a case.

It is possible Uclabb risked bussing Y2 on D1, Uclabb only calling on the absent Semck and Krellin to shift and then back peddling when Chaqa and Bo turned up is a valid theory. It may not be right, but its valid.

There is still a chance the non-humans think I'm the Cop, if so, trying to get me killed is a good tactic for them. This applies to Y2 and WD.

WD voting for a town player needied explaning - He's offered an explanation. WD defending Y2 and Y2 defending WD is suspicious. They have both given reasons why. It is for others to decide.

At the moment I'm split between WD and Y2 - I'll let the neutrals pick holes in my logic and then decide.

##VOTE bo_sox

Looks like nobody was really around to react to my Warden vote.

Can you summarise the case against Bo Ghug?

Sure thing.

• His and uclabb's reads of each other are suspicious. Bo initially read uclabb as town over next to nothing, and uclabb held a consistent scumread of bo over nothing more than one statement, but never pushed him. At night, each listed the other as scum behind two popular scumreads (y2k and krellin) so as to distance themselves without putting each other at risk. Neither offered any explanation at the time, but bo mad a point of reminding everyone of his suspicion once uclabb had died.
• He was one of the main advocates of a Squigs lynch day one, but once the lynch had gathered momentum, he said he was "still" willing to move off despite having not said anything of the sort before. He only actually moved off (and onto y2k) once the lynch was near certain.
• He reacted to what he perceived to be a power role slip from you by telling everyone. Not asking for explanation, not ignoring it and hoping the mafia hadn't noticed, but telling everyone.
• He voted for krellin despite a belief that he is town. There is no reason for townies to want to lynch townies.
• His reaction to my initial case against him was to ignore the majority of the points, misconstrue others, and attempt to undermine me over trivial things like joking that I was psychic.

There are probably a few smaller things I forgot, but that's the gist.

Wait, ghug, when did you vote for me? I didn't even notice it while I was busy with Maniac. All I saw was your vote for bo_sox when you started a case against him.

@ghug: I have never said I would refuse to vote on bo just because I don't trust you, What I said was that since I did not trust you I needed to double check your arguments and try to see for myself bo's comments in context.

@everyone: I am very sorry I have not had enough time to dedicate to the game so far. I promise much more activity during the weekend. This week has been an excruciating hell for me. I will give as short an explanation as I can of why I have not had enough time. I am Venezuelan and I am going to study an MBA at UCLA starting this September. I was already almost set with everything, but my country is such a mess that everything that could go wrong went wrong this week. First of all the US Embassy here made a mistake and gave me a tourist visa instead of a student visa (this sort of thing could only happen in my country, everything is a crazy mess here), so I had to spend almost all of monday and tuesday at the embassy with no way to communicate and I work at nights, so I basically had only a few minutes during each day to log in and try to keep up. Wednesday I got the marvelous news that Delta Airlines is leaving my country and that my plane tickets to LA are now void. Finding plane tickets here is harder than seeing an elephant flying so that forced me to spend all of yesterday and today trying to find new tickets to LA. Now, I am so backed up with all the work I have missed that I am still busy today and tomorrow, but I hope to be ble to have a clear schedule this weekend. And yes, that is the really short version. The long one would take me all day to explain. Fucking 'socialists' that have ruined my beautiful nation.

Now back to the game:

Guak's updated Reads:

SCUM:
Maniac: keeps acting like a maniac. Do not really understand why he is still talking about his wild claim, but what worries me the most is that he showed reluctace to post his top scum read before accusing y2k. That is even scummier than pj's comment I mentioned a while ago. And this is just the tip of the iceberg with Maniac. His crazy stunts and wild reads are quite different fro the maniac from last game when he made really crappy method proposals but gave very coherent reads. Also, taking back his accusation of y2k and WD as 'reaction tests' makes me think that he realized there was no one joining his wagon and wanted to avoid association to his accusations. Good ol' townies like myself never show reluctance to accuse others of being scum while trying to defend said scummy move with a crazy cop theory and will not 'withdraw accusations' by explaining they were all part of a solid plan, but rather we will simply decide we buy a defense and change our minds. ##VOTE Maniac. Strong mutant chance too based on reasons explained in previous posts.
bosox: I think I am convinced of his potential guilt. As I reread I noticed that the cases by WD and ghug againt him are quite tight. I will move my vote to bo if the Maniac wagon does not pick up strenght as he is a very close second. What really sets off my alarms here though is that he has not even bothered to defend himself lately. I think someone said that he was trying to hide and hope the pressure goes away and I think that is quite a scummy stratgy as any self-respecting townie would try to defend himself. I initially thought bo could be town stepping his game up from the last one, but now I am really understanding his suspicious behavior.
ILN: He really has not done anything to convince me otherwise. He has been among my top scum the whole game and has failed to answer to any challenges made against him. At least he took the trouble to post some reads although they were very poor ones. The only think that makes him drop a couple of spots on my list to third place is the fact that he is clearly not attempting to manipulate others into voting a certain way. It could be because all of our favorites for a lynch are townies and he does not need to, or it could be that he is just a bad townie. But I think that it is so likely that one of our top suspects is scum that I am willing to give ILN some leeway for today.

Slight SCUM
ghug: I was starting to come around to see him as less scummy due to the great case he built on bosox, but now that he is picking up Maniac's bogus WD case I wonder why. Maniac himself later said his cases made no sense (although he seems to be picking the up again after ghug supported him-a maniac contradiction) I for one think that WD just has a magnet towards a Day 2 lynch, but I think he is my strongest town read so far. WD has not been afraid to challenge others and has made an effort to accuse all who have gone under the radar, like myself, which is a very townie thing to do. I still think ghug is not looking as scummy as he did immediately after the Squigs lynch, but I cannot drop him entirely from my scum list.
pj: not much content coming from him, laying low and making the mistake to follow others in his opinions and votes make him scum in my book. I have seen him play like this in other games and he tuned out to be scum, but since he has been scum in every game we have played together I wouldn't know if this is just his playing style. Either way, i consider that behavior scummy.

Null:
I am missing someone and I don't remember who it is. Null read for whomever it is until I have more time and can come around to reread the thread.(Just realized it is y2k before posting the replym still think he is a null read for now off the top of my head).

Slight Town:
krellin: giving him the benefit of doubt for his claim, although if he is not a powr role then I have to say that a fake roleclaim makes much more sense if krellin is scum than if he is vanilla.

Strong town:
WD: for the reasons mentioned in the ghug comment, I am almost convinced that WD is town.

Complete vanilla:
Me: I know it, you guys don't, so feel free to accuse me of being something else.

Ah, found it at the bottom of the previous page. Must've missed it since I thought Maniac's next post was the only response. Maybe Maniac initially missed it too. Anyways, looking at your momentary vote change, it seems way too out of character for you not to back it up with your usual barrage of evidence, so I don't know that I would've taken it seriously even had I noticed it immediately.

WD, it was a reaction test. I wanted to see what people would do when I voted. People tend to follow my cases for whatever reason, and I wanted to see what would happen if a counterwagon were to form. I thought I could get worthwhile reactions out of bo, krellin, Maniac, pj, you, and y2k, but none of you seemed to even notice my post. I don't find either of Maniac's cases particularly strong, but I had already come out with a townread of y2k, so you were the only option there.

Day 2 Vote Count Update 3

Bo_sox(4): ghug, krellin, ILN, WardenDresden,
krellin (2):pjmansfield, bo_sox
ILN (1):Y2kjbk
Maniac (1): guak
No vote (1): Maniac

1 of 5 votes needed to END: Bo_sox

Currently BO_SOX48 is set to be lynched.

2 hours remain.

Thx Ghug. - I actually think his comment about me was govt indicative. Think about it. If he is non-human he would tell his buddies in secret and they could decide how obvious the 'slip' was before deciding how to react. Bringing it to everyone's attention allows doc to consider how to react and opens up a game of WIFOM. Perhaps I only survived because Bo alerted everyone to my comment.

The fact that two people's scum list seem similar is weak.

I see how him pushing for and then moving off squig is non-human indicative.

Voting for town is never good. But no one knows for certain who is human and who is non-human. I expressed that i wouldn't cry if krellin died in D1 and flipped human. I didn't see him as a team player and if we couldn't hit non-humans then hitting non-team players was next best thing.

WD an Y2 tried to ridicule my my reads on them, mocking my psychic abilities. I don't see that as being alignment indicative. Most people try an array of arguments when threatened, some are abusive, some dismissive, some joke and some put forward rational argument.

Overall I think the case is weak. I certainly can't see how so many seem so sure. This BW has been exploited by the non-humans. I initially had Bo as govt for a reason I didn't want to expose. I thought I picked up something he said to someone that was very telling. If he doesn't mention it again when he is pushed, I'll assume I misread him. I was concerned about his comment something like ' unlucky for you, squigs died'. I'm not 100% happy about his explanation of that. But on balance I can't put him ahead of Y2 or WD.

I'm far happier to vote WD or Y2. I have built cases against them and I'm aware that sometimes I can push hard when I get bit between my teeth.

We have to be very careful about not hitting a town power role. I've read WD and Y2 in depth and I can't see anything close to a breadcrumb.

I've got to vote for Y2 or WD - I'm happy with either.

##vote WD

Bo_sox(4): ghug, krellin, ILN, WardenDresden,
krellin (2):pjmansfield, bo_sox
ILN (1):Y2kjbk
Maniac (1): guak
WardenDresden (1): Maniac

1 of 5 votes needed to END: Bo_sox

Currently BO_SOX48 is set to be lynched.

1 hour 50 minutes remain.

Vote is interesting now. I am going to predict Y2, and WD join the voting against me soon. They want to shoot me because they think I could be the cop. I am Not going to role-claim, I am not going to vote for Bo to save my skin. If you guys let WD and Y2 shot me, you will know their alignment.

Sigh ... I guess it's time I do this. I'd have done so earlier today but I've been out all day. Maybe you guys aren't as upset about krellin's claim as you should be, but there's a reason I am. I'm trying to dig just a touch into each of the power claims/slips because I've got a kill role, and I killed my top scum read during the night - Chaqa.

If you don't believe me, look at page 22. After the deaths are revealed, I give credit to my opposite kill role that snagged uclabb when I hadn't even considered it myself. Clearly my opposite kill role is better at it than I am. After I posted it I thought someone might sniff me out when I talked about Chaqa's death, where I basically explained my justification for killing him.

Translation: you're coming out as being either the Mutant or Vigilante? If you killed Chaqa, that means the mafia killed Semck. The next immediate question is why would you partially come out as being either of those. That makes you out to be SK, doesn't it? Vigilante would just claim.

The vigilante would not just claim in this game because the SK is given full immunity from mafia attacks whereas the vigilante isn't. I'm going to make them take the risk of guessing.

Yeah, I think he's claiming SK and trying to make us think he's Vig. I don't buy it.

But this also means that if you aren't mafia, I think it's even more likely that two scum have pushed the vote on bo_sox.

##VOTE bosox

If there is a real Vig, please don't claim yet, I think he may be trying to draw you out.

Well, that's an interesting turn of events. I suppose the question is what we do with that information in the time we have left. If bo killed chaqa, then he's either mutant or vig or lying and lizard. I don't see any reasonable situation in which he could possibly be vanilla making that claim.

@Maniac, you're my #2 read, and the only reason I would move to you is if we decide NOT to kill bo today, which I'm trying to think through given his claim. I'd have to guess he's mutant, because you'd think vig would just outright say he's vigilante, but do we try to use him like PE for a round or two, or do we just kill him now?

I'm not claiming either role, guys. I'm trying to give myself a shot at getting through both today and tonight. Get off your high horse and vote out a reptile.