Find a credible unbiased source from the government that says the environment isn't fucked up, Gun. Water quality, erosion, pollution, air quality, wildlife numbers, extinction rates, carbon usage, habitat destruction, oil spills, and everything else that people around the world are making excuses for when they can just stop doing it.

Wars will do a lot. Reforming welfare programs will do a lot more. Eliminating waste and fraud will do a lot. Getting rid of programs that don't work will do a lot. Medicare reform would do a lot - neither Romney nor Obama would do that the way it needs to be done. Telling states to finance their own programs would do a lot, plus it leaves it up to them - shift the controversy elsewhere and take some blame off Washington. Devolving the federal highways could possibly save billions, though I don't know how easy that would be. That stimulus money should come back over time if we cut the things we spent it on that don't need it anymore.

The thing is that no matter how extreme you go, you'll still be left with a debt. Maybe not a deficit, but if the problem is the impending doom that people make it out to be, we should be a lot more happy with going back to the 1400s than we actually are.

Telling states to finance it themselves. That's all fine and dandy, but the feds seem addicted to telling states to finance shit but then actually requiring the states to do it. It's like telling your dependents who have much less income that if they want to eat they have to pay for it themselves. You aremandating thet the states spend money on programs the state may not wish to support. The feds *can't* do that (although they do).

What happened here ..... I start a nice thread about our Yankee cousins and it seems to have taken a more sinister tone, we haven't finished with the list of all the nice things yet like puppy dogs and candy floss and hot dogs and Sean Penn, Eminem, Carl Lewis, hot dog sellers around Central Park, people that live in Santa Monica, et al ad infinitum

I love that we kicked Britain's ass. Twice. I don't wanna hear any bullshit about France or Canada either.

Twice!

TADA TADAH !!!! " America Must Rise "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcetNiR88uw

The American Revolution equals 1… what's two? The War of 1812? That was a technical win in hindsight but not a "kicked Britain's ass" win.

#DharmatonisTeddyTurpin

Told you I dont wanna hear any bullshit commie talk bo_sox

kicked ass TWICE!

YJ, and we sent you over all of the Irish peasants to breed, just shows Great Britain has a GSOH. We can't take responsibility for the rest of the crazies that made it there

Could have been worse, we sent all of our convicts to Australia.....

and then there was the slave trade, that's helped big time with the Olympics Gold Medal haul, you never would have achieved that with the Irish alone

Yeah YJ, I'm a commie, right. Seriously, if the Americans defeated the British in the Civil War, you just let me know right quick now o_O

I'll say this about America:

Between Los Angeles and New York, the Pacific and Atlantic, North and South, urban and rural areas, and a highway system connecting it all...

If you hate where you are, chances are that there's SOMEWHERE among the 50 states you'll feel at least somewhat happy and somewhat at home (even if the other states in the neighborhood can be a pain in the ass.)

America the Beautiful--

300 million people, 50 states, thousands of cities and miles upon miles of countryside...

There has to be SOMEWHERE that you don't facepalm at!

;)

A story of the stereotypes that make America great:
http://gma.yahoo.com/obese-woman-denied-flights-home-dies-abroad-191137549--abc-news-topstories.html

Namely:
1) Americans are fat
2) Americans are arrogant and stupid
3) Americans think any other country in the world sucks
4) Americans are afraid of communists
5) When something bad happens to them due to their own arrogance and stupidity, Americans like to blame someone else
6) Americans sue everyone

Shamelessly stolen from PI OT forum.

"Vilma Soltesz, 56, died of kidney failure on Oct. 24 in Hungary, where she and her husband, Janos Soltesz, took an annual vacation to a home they owned in *their native country*"

Please don't talk about Americans and stereotpyes when these two are native Hungarians. In fact, it doesn't even say of they were American citizens or just living here on a visa.

It now struck me all the Americans on this site might have been born American. Is Henry Kissinger an American? If you say no, then I rest my case.

@ bo_sox48

"Find a credible unbiased source from the government that says the environment isn't fucked up, Gun."

I don't doubt you. I'm not trying to argue that it isn't fucked up. But is it more fucked up than our economy? Or our government? I'm willing to put the environment on the back burner (along with social issues) in the interest of fixing bigger problems.

"Reforming welfare programs will do a lot more. Eliminating waste and fraud will do a lot. Getting rid of programs that don't work will do a lot. Medicare reform would do a lot - neither Romney nor Obama would do that the way it needs to be done."

How about we eliminate entitlements altogether? The concept that the federal government owes anyone anything just because they are a senior citizen, a poor person, etc. is a fucked up idea to begin with and inherently discriminatory. What makes the senior citizen more special than the middle-aged person? What makes the poor person more special than the rich person? If the states want to provide a social safety net, let them do it and let them pay for it and let their citizens run and supervise it. The federal government has neither the authority nor the money to continue to run entitlement programs.

"Wars will do a lot. Reforming welfare programs will do a lot more."

Let's take the wars out of it. Let's include all defense spending. The military provides unprecedented opportunities for young people like yourself. You said you were sixteen. You can graduate high school, join the military, serve honorably for X number of years, acquire a valuable skill, and then go to college for free or at a significant discount. Or you can go to college, join ROTC, get a full-ride scholarship, become an officer, and be making 70,000 dollars with plenty of room for promotion right out of college with full health, vacation, and retirement packages.

"The thing is that no matter how extreme you go, you'll still be left with a debt."

That's simply not true. Businesses run every day with budget surpluses, usually the most successful businesses. Why can't the government? Liberals themselves boast the Clinton was on his way to paying off the national debt.

<Draugnar + 2>

@ ulytau

"Americans are fat"

I'm in excellent physical condition, along with many Americans.

"Americans are arrogant and stupid"

I am neither arrogant nor stupid, and I know many like-minded Americans.

"Americans think any other country in the world sucks"

So? What other country lets you do the things that America lets you do?

"Americans are afraid of communists"

No, I just hate communists because it is a completely irrational system and communism is the root of the majority of evil in the world.

"When something bad happens to them due to their own arrogance and stupidity, Americans like to blame someone else"

So? What group of people hasn't done that at one point or another?

"Americans sue everyone"

I have never sued anyone in my life. I do not personally know anyone who has sued anyone.

@bo I'm being facetious sir, and referencing an old thread at the same time, possibly before your time.

only president eden is a real american all the rest of you are commie stalinsucking bastards!

@gun - The senior contributed most if not all.his working life to social.security. He is owed it becaise he paid into it. If he doesn't get it then he was robbed. Social.security was fucked up by the feds, but the people who contributed to.it still havr a right to collect it even.if it meams taking a shotgun to.the federal reserve shoild the government cancel the program. I know I would sue the federal.government for.embezzlement if they cancel the program I have contributed to.for 30 years expecting a guaranteed ROI.

Yeah, social security is not an entitlement -- it was sold as a savings program, and workers would sure as heck voted to get their SS payroll taxes back if they'd known they wouldn't be getting any SS.

By the same token, the Dems are being dishonest when they talk about the GOP's desire to restore the payroll tax to its prior levels as wanting to raise taxes on the middle class. The GOP simply wants to leave SS as a saving program, not an entitlement.

I'm not talking about Social Security. Everyone who paid into social security should get exactly what they put in back, and the program should be phased out. The federal government has no business messing with peoples' hard-earned money unless it is in the form of direct taxes.

I was referring to Medicare, Medicaid, and welfare among others.

@gun - And how will they do that? The money was used for other purposes as well as paid out to people who *didn't* put any in back whne SS started. There isn't enough in the coffers to pay everyone back what they put into it even at 0% interest.

Land of the free home of the brave?
Indigenous holocaust and home of the slaves

Gunfighter I'd like you to take a strong look at some select European (no doubt you'd call them "socialist") states and examine the social programs that they have in place, compare their standard of living to ours, and then tell me more about how these programs are "fucked up."

Fact is, nobody got rich "doing it on their own." They had employees, they had costumers, they had loans, they had SOCIETY. Without these things a business cannot grow beyond merely sustaining its own needs. And sometimes society wants a piece back. Yes, a piece back beyond the pittance their labor is "worth."

I'm really tired of this conservative insistence that America ought to continue to measure the worth and dignity of a human being entirely on the free market value of their skills. We are worth more than that. I am worth more than that. You may not agree, but slowly and surely, the nation is moving in a direction that desires increased social safety net programs. Yes, SS. Yes, nationalized healthcare.

Social welfare programs instituted at the federal level aren't some "crazy experiment" that is doomed to fail - it's merely catching up with the rest of the civilized world. And if you're a person who still thinks we in America are ahead of the game, then I suggest you state what metric of success you're going by. Fact is, America is not #1 at much of anything anymore. Education? No. Standard of living? No. Life expectancy? No. Economy per capita? No.


So why the hell are you suggesting more of what's making us lag behind? All I hear from you guys is DEREGULATE and PRIVATIZE and TRICKLE DOWN and goddammit wouldn't a person with common sense examine what's working for the rest of the world and maybe give some of that a shot?

What are some of the European countries you speak of, YJ? (You probably mean a lot, I know, but some examples would be useful for analysis).

While I await your answer, here's a good general response to the form of argument you raise:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/26/america-really-is-exceptional.html

Your other arguments are all too commonly refuted to worry much about, needless to say. You talk a lot about worth, but you'll never give me another way to actually determine it numerically other than a market.

Conservatives don't "measure the worth and value of a human being entirely on the free-market value of their skills." Only a thorough-going materialist (in every possible sense of the word) could make the mistake of confusing what we think somebody should make, fiscally, with what they are worth as a person. It is you, patently, who thinks somebody is worth only the money they own or make.

A grown business paid for what it got at each step of the way. If the laborer's labor was worth more than what he got for it, he should not have done it. If the roads that were built were worth more than society got for them, then they should have raised taxes (but in the past -- when they built the roads). And so on. A business pays its debt at each step of the way. The rest is just a lot of fallacious justifications for taking the results of other people's labor.

people said the same thing about public schooling systems that they are saying about universal healthcare its just plain old poppycock

I think the USA is an incredible place, a racial melting pot of people of all colours and creeds trying to work together to create one unified nation out of 50 member states, that is a remarkable thing, Europe can't do it, nor could the Soviet Union.
If you look at it as 50 different countries it puts it into a kind of perspective.
It's fair to say a lot of the people in the country struggle with the basic concepts of a social democracy but that may be a by-product of the unique racial and cultural mix, how do people treat each other within their own cultural groups, that is a better measure of the progress that has been made in this area. I do believe that that the USA will develop a slightly more sophisticated democratic model in years to come.