I was and remain against intervention in Libya. Always a good idea to go for libel when your position finds no support.

"Demonstrably false. Look at links I've posted here going back years.Hardly any are from Wikipedia."

You're the one who started this thread. I didn't realize it was too much effort for you to know anything about the topic. But sure blame me for your own laziness.

I didn't mention anything about intervention, genius. Do you support Gaddafi's right to put down an armed insurrection against the state?

We'll all remember this thread next time Putin develops cry-baby-itis over the international reaction over something Libya did or some shit. An unblinking mass murderer who kills over a thousand unarmed protesters is an anti-American hero. Libyans retaliating against 40 years of despotic brutality are racist murderers.

This thread is about Puerto Rico. You called me out for only knowing about the Colombian UP from Wikipedia. Nice try.

The Benghazi rebels openly brag about their anti-black atrocities on youtube. But yeah they're not racist. Santa said so.

Puerto Rican Nationalists shot up congress and planted over a hundred bombs throughout the United States, but when jailed they are harmless activists. Putin said so.

"This thread is about Puerto Rico. You called me out for only knowing about the Colombian UP from Wikipedia. Nice try."

Right, because you've demonstrated so much willingness to look up the facts about the Puerto Rican nationalists and the history of government repression.

The Ponce massacre never happened and 1954 was a year in which we were all sucked into a historical vacuum. Santa's a historian, he knows that history doesn't matter.

"Do you support Gaddafi's right to put down an armed insurrection against the state? "

I support people rising up for freedom when there is no peaceful opportunity for removing an authoritarian regime. No comparable situation exists in Puerto Rico. If the United States army was massacring civilians staging a peaceful protest with war planes, firing rockets at San Juan,, and sending the marines in with Viagra with express orders to rape then I would support the movement against the government.

But that's not the situation. There are free elections in Puerto Rico and it is self governing, under Congress' authority. There have been three referendums where independence was an option and it looks like there is a push for another. The Puerto Rican people are in control of their destiny, it's just that they haven't seemed to make up their minds yet.

"The Ponce massacre never happened and 1954 was a year in which we were all sucked into a historical vacuum. Santa's a historian, he knows that history doesn't matter."

The cold blooded massacres of unarmed lybians on the street using automatic weapons never happened and 2011 is the year we give brutal dictators a pass. Putin is an activist for the people, but he knows that half of the Libyan people don't matter

I'm starting to think you're just a very dedicated troll, Usefulidiot33. We were having such a pleasant time making fun of Delaware in this thread...

I figured you'd believe the Viagra/rape story, which doesn't have a shred of evidence to back it up and even mainstream journalists don't believe it. You'll say anything to carry water for American militarism.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0613/The-Gay-Girl-in-Damascus-hoax-mass-rape-in-Libya-and-press-credulity

Oh, well I guess you're right about everything else then too. Let's go wave the red flag on The Oval together.

Let's go hug the FBI building instead. I'll wear my American flag underpants along with a cape. Don't worry they're flame retardant. We can go rent Team America afterwards.

why dont we do both?

I'd pay good money to see that!

Not much good money, you understand, but the principle is there...

Without reading the thread that seems to be... animated to say the least - if they want statehood, they should get it.

In fact I think any people-group that applies for American statehood should receive it, unless we in America have reason to believe the referendum was fraudulent.

@ Thucydides

I like the ideology behind that idea... But it is a tad geographically inconvenient, don't you think? And I dare say a few nations who suddenly become US neighbours may be a tad miffed.

My map may be off but it seems the neighbor that may be miffed is actually closer to Florida than it is to Puerto Rico, I think, all conspiracy theories aside, it should be left up to popular vote

Self determination for the win!

While I agree with you in principle Thucydides, it's really not that simple. I saw a poll a few years ago that at least a plurality of Taiwanese would rather become the 51st state than rejoin Red China. I'd say that's one territory we can pass up, popular will be damned. It's also against international law to just take away another country's territory just because the people there want to change rulers. Take Kosovo when it wanted to join Albania in the 1990s, for instance. Puerto Rico is already under the sovereignty of the United States so it's a different issue, but cracking up counties is not exactly a safe precedent to set. Better they become independent, or reach a peaceful agreement with the state they currently are controlled by. Iraqi Kurdistan's a good example there.

I am in favor generally of integration over disintegration so if a country wanted to join a country instead of being independent I would be all for it.

Also you may say it's illegal but what was Texas all about? And how do you then interpret the right of all people to self-determination enshrined in the UN Charter?

And Taiwan is not a part of China's territory... let's get real.

"And Taiwan is not a part of China's territory... let's get real. "
Actually it is...

Both the PRC and the ROC agree that the island of Formosa is an integral part of China.

Texas was before this norm existed.

People have a right to self-determination, that's totally true. But states don't have the right to take land from other states. It complicated and there's probably not a clear answer, but you don't want to just start cracking up states willy nilly. That's dangerously destabilizing. Every case will also be totally different (is Kosovo joining Albania the same as Abkhazia joinging Russia?) so you'd be flying by the seat of your pants in volatile situations every time something like this came up. So yeah, just because some people in !Klungawungaton want to join the United States does not mean they automatically should. But this is purely theoretical and not at all related to the Puerto Rico scenario, since that is a territory already under the sovereignty of the United States.

Taiwan is a part of China's territory. Everyone agrees to that. No one's ever not agreed to that. The issue is that the United States is committed to preventing mainland China from using force to change the status quo there. Reunification will happen, it just has to happen peacefully. As long as the mainland's a communist dictatorship that's not terribly likely to happen, but a deal like what Hong Kong and Macau have isn't too crazy in the long term as China's power increases.

Bascially Taiwan is a part of China not controlled by the PRC. The United States wants to preserve the staus quo and keep the PRC from using force to achieve reunification with what is still technically the old ROC government.

No one in power, that is. There is a Taiwan independence movement.

Texas was in the 19th Century. Not the 20th, there was really no such thing as international law in the 19th Century.

There was international law in Ancient Greece. The thing is that norms change over time so what was considered acceptable for states to do in the 1840s (like the slave trade or establishing colonies) is no longer kosher now.