@Thucydides

We don't need to be protectionist. We need to withdraw MFN status from the PRC until they float the yuan, though.

@Thucy - decline could mean comparative power rather than actual growth - i mean how the US comapres to otehr nations in the world as compared with being the leading and unchallenged super-power.

In the next 100 years three/four economic/political powers will compete, (EU. India, China, and perhaps the South American Union) Whether the world moves toward a more multipolar system is not in question, it is merely what form that will take.

The EU is a bust, China is a bust. India, Brazil, Turkey and Mexico are all possibilities, if they can get there shit together, but India is overpopulated, and overpopulation (in relation to available land and resources) severely hampers economic growth; Brazil is a contender, but 75% of its territory is completely unusable; Turkey is perhaps the most likely of these to eventually become an economic powerhouse, provided it stays out of the EU; Mexico would be astonishingly powerful as well, if it wasn't for the fact that 4/5 of its population are stuck in constant pauperism by the combination of a Corporate state with an archaic proto-socialist bureaucracy. Oh, and the whole drug-laced civil war thing.

The EU and China are both fractious, and both have highly fragile economies (as evidenced by their recent economic crises between April of this year and the present). As far as I see it, until Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain pull themselves off the brink of bankruptcy, nothing will make the EU that powerful. France is a neutral influence, both economically and politically, the Eastern European powers are wildcards, and Germany is -- economically and industrially -- the only productive state in the entire Union.

@ Bob G.

I would nominally agree, except for the fact that we've been hearing stories about whether or not China will float the yuan since 2005. I mean, theoretically, I don't believe in MFN status for any nation, but right now, it might not justify the credit crunch that would ensue from removing that status.

This is an incredibly hard call to make. I lean toward saying no, and that we will continue on steadily and that any troughs we are in right now are just a part of history's larger patterns and that we will continue on. I also wonder if people were having this very same debate in the 1960's, 50's, 40's, and even 30's. So basically I just don't know enough about history to be able to deliver a verdict on this particular subject. :/

@FOB

There's a ton of problems for America with a yuan that floats, but I think it's probably worth the pain in order to reignite American manufacturing capabilities. Financial services is a shitty basis for an economy, as it leads to huge income disparities and relies entirely upon the massive subsidy we get from the rest of the world by their use of the dollar as the transactional currency. We need to get back to where we're building and exporting goods again, if we're going to rebuild our middle class.

TMW, were you originally Diplomat1824? Are the allegations true?
Were you banned and then given a second chance?
threadID=634508

In the 40's and 50's? No, people in America weren't having this debate. In the 30's? Ayup. Fortunately, the capitalist class was smart enough to cut a broad social deal with the working class, which lead to our amazingly broad prosperity of the 40's-70's. In the 60's, lots of people thought America was imploding, primarily because we decided that black people should be full citizens, too.

@Bob

Perhaps you're right, but the problem with PNTR (or MFN) status is that its intrinsically linked to the WTO, and the WTO is intrinsically linked to what little manufacturing (which is an exaggeration -- manufacturing still makes up a vast majority of our non-service economy, even more than financial services) we still have being competitive on the world market.

I'm not even sure PNTR status could be revoked without involving the WTO in that process.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=38147
Join,

Winston, wtf man, you keep posting your random-ass games to threads that have nothing to do with games. Stop spamming our shit, boy.

@ puddle "I'm not sure if that was meant to be a mean/sarcastic/a put down Mafia, but yea I am in school, doing my senior year of highschool at the local community college." I've been pretty sarcastic this whole time, but nothing I said was directed at you. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way, but I'm only interested in being sarcastic at TMW and mapleleaf. You I like.

@yebellz: "TMW, were you originally Diplomat1824? Are the allegations true?
Were you banned and then given a second chance?"

Yes, he was. This is not an "allegation" - it is a fact. The moderators have confirmed this to be the case. It is beyond arguing about.

Are you going to respond to my points, Dr._The_Master_Warrior_Ph.D?

Americans haven't figured out that we're not Rome. Europe is Rome; we're the barbarians. When the Europeans took over the world and then turned on each other, they called us in to save the day. But then we didn't leave. And while we pay lip service to the values of Western Civilization, we're kind of crazy, and our attempts to run a civilization without acknowledging the importance of people who actually know what they're doing will lead to collapse.

{Quirks eyebrow} are you implying that European politicians 'know what they're doing'?

Also, the barbarian states were just that: barbaric. America represents the pinnacle of modern world civilization, being a leader in so much, if not necessarily number one in all categories.

I'm suggesting that a great deal of public debate in the United States is shaped by debates over factual issues that are basically taken for granted in the rest of the developing world. So you have debates about things like climate change, health care, and education in ways that you just don't in other developed countries. I'm sure lots of you will tell me that's one of the great things about America.

And "pinnacle of civilization" vs. "barbaric" is a value judgment. But the whole argument about the "fall of Rome" is just absolutely ridiculous at every level--not least because what we call "the fall of the Roman Empire" wasn't actually the end of the Empire, or even the biggest defeat it faced. The Germanic conquests of the 5th century weren't nearly as damaging to the Roman Empire as the Arab conquests of the 7th century.

@ VanHaylen: " America represents the pinnacle of modern world civilization"

Yeah, right.

On what basis?

I take it by the fact that he has now been on the forum twice, but has not, in that time, responded to any of the criticisms of his position in this, a thread he started, that Dr._The_Master_Warrior_PhD admits that he was wrong.

wrong? he put forward an idea and it got shot down. He opened with a question... the resounding answer from the forum was a big loud "NO" perhaps he is satisfied? perhaps he expected to hear some interesting arguements on either side, but only got the resounding "NO", i don't know... but to be honest, i didn't read his opening statement anyway so who am i to talk?

Jamiet -- pinnacle might be a bad choice of words because it implies finality, but its hard to deny that economically, artistically, culturally, militarily, scientifically, and in terms of world influence, the United States is the highest point yet reached.

The UK had its day, and maybe it will again, but as of right now, don't be bitter.

@pastoralan

The barbarians created the last golden age of the western Empire, during the reigns of Odoacer and Theodoric. If it hadn't of been for Justinian's mad attempt to assert hegemony over everything, the Goths would have become as Roman as the Samnites or Etruscans did.

Okay, guys, I admit defeat on this argument. I am simply numerically overwhelmed and I am currently reevaluating my thoughts.

Well, kudos on that.

Maybe next time you should try learning about the world around you before you spout off quarter baked ideas.

But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for you to grow up, kiddo.

For once, +1 to Dr._The_Master_Warrior_PhD for being willing to admit he may have been mistaken about something.

(I still have NO idea where you got your ideas about inflation from, btw...)

@ F.O.B. "The UK had its day, and maybe it will again, but as of right now, don't be bitter."

Ho ho. I wasn't claiming the UK was the pinnacle of human civilisation. I was just question whether the US really was.

Well, in a quantitative argument, there's no question that the U.S. is the "best yet seen."

Qualitatively, who knows. Probably for the Supreme Being to decide.