@bigworm, you wouldn't have gotten the interviews with Google and Amazon if you didn't have a signification amount of experience and courses/certifications that indicated you might even have problem solving skills.

He just knew why manhole covers were round.

@bigworm, okay I caught up on the last page now. So I think in theory you are right, and if you were giving advice to an outright CIS major it would be helpful. Python, Perl, fortran, it doesn't matter what you are good at if you are interviewing at one of the top companies. They are more interested in your psydo coding abilities then anything else. The best programmers can pick up any language with ease. When you're talking to someone just starting out in the field though I think you need to start simply. I personally recommend C++ because it makes a programmer use a lot of basic functionality before they get too complicated, so you focus more on your design skills. Then you work into object oriented programming. Python and C++ are two good languages to learn, since understanding both pretty well shows you can learn any language.

Now you're right, Objective C, C# or other higher level languages can be more useful immediately, but they are more idiot proof and it's a lot harder to go from C# to C++ or C then the reverse. So if you're sure that you'll never need to use C++, C, or any lower level language then sure, start high. I have found though, that people who start lower have a better all around understanding of how the program interacts with the computer, memory management, the compiler (for compiler languages), and how to accurately debug issues.

Though I would recommend SQL over C++. So many companies use a database of some sort. Every company needs DB administrators. So if someone is interested in economics, and programming I would see DB work as one of the most likely avenues.

I found that wikiversity has really good information on programming that is free, but there are a TON of free books about any subject related to programming.
Not to mention free courses - listed below

While reading books is great and all, a nice way to learn the syntax is just to start and learn along the way, occasionally looking at a book for tips.
http://www.codecademy.com/

I would suggest you enroll in this:
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/begin-programming-2014
https://www.coursera.org/course/interactivepython

Read this:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Object_Oriented_Programming
And try to google and search for, and read on :
The object, classes and instances, polymorphism, inheritance.

And in case you want to browse some free courses:
coursera.com
futurelearn.com
iversity.org
online.stanford.edu
ocw.mit.edu

Frank wrote: "What are you planning to do for the 5 years in which you learn programming? A lot of economists do a lot of coding as part of their job (matlab, r, stata, vba, sql, etc) even though they aren't programmers or engineers. "

I think this is good advice in the thread. I think aspiring to be a serious self-taught developer is going to hard (unless you are exceptionally talented).

Real programmers often turn their nose up it, but VBA is extremely useful if you are going to be working with Excel spreadsheets a lot. VBA and SQL combined is even better. You will find it useful if you once you land yourself a graduate position.

VBA/SQL is an extremely attractive combination to many companies.

More VB/SQL VBA isn't used all that much except for Excel and Word macros. VC#/SQL is in more demand than VB, but as long as you have .Net knowledge and can write a well formed SQL query (and especially stored procedures or managed .net code for SQL) I can get you on as a junior programmer here, and we need some coders who can read a technical spec and fill in the blanks, as it were.

+1 to almost all of ILN's resources. I would also add Udacity to that list.

If you live near any kind of population center, I would also recommend looking into in person meetups in your area. Meetup.com is a good place to look, but it can also be as easy as just to google "$AREA javascript meetup" "$AREA linux users group" or whatever you are interested in. This will show you what current practitioners in your area are working on and get you introduced to some of them. Even though software engineering mostly operates like a meritocracy, who you know can be pretty important for getting your foot in the door for an interview.

You are quite unlikely to be the only beginner there and there are probably lots of people that would like to help you learn. At the very least, you'll probably get some free pizza out of it.

@bigworm - The degree/certs/experience get you past the HR dweeb. I've worked for Cincom Systems, P&G (who requires a degree now), and presently work for Vertical Solutions as their Senior Software Engineer, reporting to the VP of product development and the CTO.

Also, connect up with some of us on LjnkedIn. There are a lot of online groups there as well.

I think ringworm sounds like he knows his shit.

Yeah, he's a fellow codehead. But no two coders have the same opinion. We are a stubborn lot with huge egos.

@jmo1121109 - that's not true. I have a degree but I have friends who are high school dropouts with zero certifications who work at places like that. The key factor is that experience and ability trump everything else. These people somehow managed to get their first job and their reputation opens the door to other opportunities.

C++ is the opposite of simple. It is probably the most complicated and largest language in common usage. There are tons of gotchas and chainsaws throughout the language, not to mention that there is just so much of the language to learn.

Also, let me let you in on a dirty little secret: not every program has to be super efficient. Computers are fast enough that developer time is often the most expensive resource. In my experience, it is often much easier to move faster in a high level language like Python, Ruby, or JavaScript than in a lower level language like C, C++, or even Java and C#. This is a relatively new paradigm shift, so there is a ton of legacy software out there written before this was the case, but when presented with a blank slate and given a choice of technologies, C++ is rarely the best choice for most situations.

"More VB/SQL VBA isn't used all that much except for Excel and Word macros. "

That might be true for professional developers (ie real programmers) but for people who work with Excel (and other Office applications) - VBA is incredibly useful. Excel is still used everywhere and will be for a long time to come. I would imagine a graduate economist (or related field) will be likely working with Excel a lot. Knowing VBA in that environment is very useful.

I am suggesting to PE rather than giving up on his degree altogether he try to add to his skills in that field - rather than switching careers altogether. It's an option he should at least consider.

Personally, I could care less what my supervisor's title is. If you want to create call center software for a massive, soulless chemical conglomerate, then follow Draugnar's advice. That is not the kind of work that I find enjoyable, so I took a different path. To each their own.

Don't get me wrong, a degree is definitely a leg up, but that is not really feasible in this situation. I just want to make it clear that even without an academic education, a motivated person can become competent in development and have a very successful career and suggested paths that were viable in such a situation. This is more true than any other time due to the unprecedented demand for software developers.

I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible, it's just harder. It's like saying someone with a highschool education can become president of the United States; it's possible but I mean, what are the odds?

Vertical Solutions is 25 people. Hardly a soulless chemical conglomerate. And when I was working at the soulless chemical conglomerate (P&G), I was doing cutting edge process modeling - a position I got based on my developing worst case wind event and ground water modeling processes at Parsons for cleaning up Fernald.

I am telling you the odds are pretty good, especially if you have a degree in a field related to math or science. Not only are developers highly demanded, recently there has been somewhat of a movement to include people of more diverse backgrounds.

Is 25 people even enough to require an HR dweeb?

With Obama care insurance requirements, you betcha.

And @BW, I only have an Associates, so yeah, it can be done. But it gets harder and harder as time goes along cause more and more devs are being turned out by the schools of higher learning.

Draug, you're definitely right about it being harder, but I have a friend who dropped out of high school last year and is already making $80k a year as a dev. Obviously that's not normal.

PE, I suggest you teach yourself to code, it doesn't really matter what language as they all have advantages and drawbacks, and go from there. It's definitely a lucrative field, but it's not easy to get into, especially without a degree, and it's something you should only pursue if you really enjoy it. If you start and you like it, do more, work on open source projects, start your own and see where they take you. At the very least it'll make you more desirable as an economist, and it could be more.

""More VB/SQL VBA isn't used all that much except for Excel and Word macros. "

That might be true for professional developers (ie real programmers) but for people who work with Excel (and other Office applications) - VBA is incredibly useful. Excel is still used everywhere and will be for a long time to come. I would imagine a graduate economist (or related field) will be likely working with Excel a lot. Knowing VBA in that environment is very useful.

I am suggesting to PE rather than giving up on his degree altogether he try to add to his skills in that field - rather than switching careers altogether. It's an option he should at least consider."

This. You probably switched to an economic field for a reason. You can land a junior analyst position in marketing and such with passable knowledge of VBA. Excel is still the name of the game. If you know SQL, all the better. If you know data visualization like Tableau, all the better. And even if you really want to move onto something more technical, your economics degree still means you should steer yourself into something like business intelligence, which combines the two. It's better for analysts when their data is prepared by someone who knows the basics of business, it makes the communication easier when a new thing has to be tracked and such.

So yeah, if you want to leverage your economics while moving closer to "IT", go for Excel + VBA as a start. And you really want to be able to tackle anything in Excel first before starting VBA macros. Macros make things easier but you need to know how to accomplish your task first before you can automatize it.

If you want to go the programming route, stick to what the local "engineers" advice you.

You could also go quant or econometrics, but that would really require another respective degree.

With an economics degree you should be able to land a position in management accounting within a large organisation and use your technical skills to create more efficient systems (you'll be amazed how far IF statements and lookups can take you). But if you're feeling despondent with figures and it's more of a spiritual move to programming, good luck. From experience the fact that you took 20+ years to move to programming is a clue (although not proof!) that perhaps it isn't what you should be doing.

I don't mean to undermine your desires, but there are far too many people trying to be video game designers, programmers, web designers and so on - that ship sailed about 5-10 years ago and now it's full up and sinking.

Actually, IT in general and development have some of the lowest unemployment rates and there are lots of jobs out there. If there weren't, we'd be sending home H1B visa workers.

A lot of the advice here is good (and a little bit of it is terrible).

It's definitely not hard, in a period of years, to become an able and accomplished programmer in any modern language. The difficulty will be telegraphing that fact without a formal credential, and that's the reason that most people will want to see a degree. It's certainly possible to get going without a degree -- krellin's right -- but you should consider the economics of it: is the time you'll spend underpaid relative to your skill level worth the time and money you'll spend not getting a degree?

One path you could consider is some variant of the following:

(1) Spend a year or two intensively learning programming, while working a job / not being completely poor. (Hard to do, time management etc.)
(2) Convince some public university somewhere (i.e., somewhere cheap) to let you take a junior/senior course or two, demonstrating an ability to excel in the academic CS environment, and learning some of the tougher stuff about algorithms.
(3) Apply for a Master's program in CS. They don't all require a BS in computer science. They would likely require a few "leveling" courses.

This way, you don't waste time getting another BS, and you still get a CS degree.

One thing about teaching yourself: there are definitely points where that's going to become tougher than taking courses. Examples include studying algorithms in depth, and so on, which are essentially quite intensive math pursuits where the structure of a course can be very helpful. Anybody can learn to program, and program well, but higher-end employers are definitely going to want you to be able to say why mergesort is sometimes better than quicksort, or to describe Dijkstra's algorithm.

As for languages to learn first -- I really agree C++ is a great language to learn. It's the most flexible and powerful modern language, it's in very wide use, and it's relatively hard, so moving to other languages is typically easier than the reverse. I think it's a fine language to begin with (you can start with a subset and slowly grow to the whole thing), but there's nothing wrong with doing python or something first for a while and then moving. I started in Visual Basic years and years ago when that wasn't a ridiculous thing to do, and within a year got frustrated with its limitations and switched to C++. I don't have any regrets.

Sorry, I don't know any good free resources off hand -- you could do better googling that question and following the results. I'd really recommend getting a good book, though. If you're spending a few years on this, $50 for a good book is a tiny additional cost.

@Draug,

"@roller - I'm a C# and Java coder by day, but love C++ for game/graphics design."

Remind me please why, when I posted a C++ program here awhile back, you mistook it for PHP?

I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I'm not.

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1003725&page-thread=3#threadPager

Your right. But, in my defense, I was working 70-80 hour weeks at that time and even told you my brain was frazzled. A simple glance at the includes is all one needs to see it is C++.