Interesting implications with old Plato, eh?

It's a definition, but in my opinion one can still have knowledge without justification.

For instance, I can have the knowledge that 2 * 2 = 4, but it would be unjustfied if I believed that way because I know that 2 + 2 = 4 as well. Knowledge is knowledge, regardless of the path by which it is reached.

But yes, we are just discussing various definitions, though for whatever reason this one interests me.

You don't need a Talmudic investigation to discern the blatant anti-intellectualism in the text of those quotes.

"Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

Shame the wise? Not anti-intelligence? Ok, then.

"Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body."

Much study wearies the body? Not anti-intellectual? Sure buddy.

"At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

Hiding things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to people whose critical thinking skills are undeveloped (children). But not anti-intellectual?

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding"

Do not use reason as a basis for your belief!

"And I, when I came to you, brothers,[a] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony[b] of God with lofty speech or wisdom"

Heaven forbid!

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Again denigrating "wise speech and man's wisdom. Better to be simple minded and devoted to the cause than to use your reasoning skills.

Yes Virginia, it is rational to believe in god

The Hebrew Bible is treasured by the Jewish people, one of the great literate and learned societies of human history. And the Christian Bible was known and loved by, among others, Aquinas, Augustine, Newton etc.

But I am sure you are interpreting the Bible more correctly than they.

yes it is

"The Hebrew Bible is treasured by the Jewish people, one of the great literate and learned societies of human history"

A non-sequitur. You can obviously read for yourself, so why must you appeal to authority or resort to name-dropping?

Anyway, it's a curiosity that you invoke the learned Jews whilst ignoring the fact that those who self-identify as Jews habitually poll as being among the least religious communities in the world (whilst the more religious ones tend to celebrate "holidays" devoted to honoring backwardness over reason, like the Maccabean revolt vs the Seleucids). So the religion and scholarship do not appear to be connected. It's also humorous whenever Christians invoke heterodox figures like Newton as their own, as the religious authorities at the time disliked him and his work. Oh and please let's all forget the fact that we went from the heights of rationalism in pre-Christian Rome to the depths of ignorance and superstitution in medieval Europe, all thanks to Christianity. We had to "rediscover" what the Greeks already knew before the time of Christ in the Renaissance & Enlightenment eras. Points for Christian rationality!

Putin writes:
<<You don't need a Talmudic investigation to discern the blatant anti-intellectualism in the text of those quotes.>>

I'm going to argue every one of these.

<<"Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.">>

That's right. Jesus' disciples were rough fishermen in a time when there were distinct class differences. Just an example.

<<"Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.">>

Here's that one in context: "11The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. 12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. 13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.…"

It starts off by praising wisdom and points out that all wisdom comes from one Shepherd--God. It then warns against "excess devotion" to books.

<<"At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.">>

Here's the context of that one: 25 "At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. 26 Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way!

27 “My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

28 Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”

In the section above, Jesus ends with a statement of what true wisdom is.

<<"Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding">>

Here's the context: "My child,[a] never forget the things I have taught you.
Store my commands in your heart.
2 If you do this, you will live many years,
and your life will be satisfying.
3 Never let loyalty and kindness leave you!
Tie them around your neck as a reminder.
Write them deep within your heart.
4 Then you will find favor with both God and people,
and you will earn a good reputation.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart;
do not depend on your own understanding.
6 Seek his will in all you do,
and he will show you which path to take.
7 Don’t be impressed with your own wisdom.
Instead, fear the Lord and turn away from evil.
8 Then you will have healing for your body
and strength for your bones."

Self-explanatory.

<<"And I, when I came to you, brothers,[a] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony[b] of God with lofty speech or wisdom">>

Again, this is taken out of context. In context it is not at all anti-intellectual. But you have to read it all. "2:1 When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan.[b] 2 For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit. 5 I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.

6 Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God[c]—his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him.”[d]
10 But[e] it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. 11 No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 12 And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.[f] 14 But people who aren’t spiritual[g] can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15 Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. 16 For,

“Who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to teach him?”[h]
But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

I hope this clears up any misperceptions about what the Bible says about wisdom, Putin.

I don't see how that buttressed your point at all. The greater context makes the anti-intellectualism plain as day.

Many people take a verse of the Bible and just use them to illustrate what they believe in, not what Bible truly say.

The Bible is one of the Classics ,,,,,, but I prefer non-fiction

The Dark Ages are a myth, created by Protestants who wished to denigrate Catholicism.

Looks like someone above is trying too hard, somebody needs to explain that sometimes less is more

Despite what Putin tried to say, the problem in dipplayer's post is not non sequitur it is a problem with causality. Dipplayer's argument is that the Jews are smart and literate, so therefor the fact that they treasure the Old Testament and Jewish law means religion is accepted by smart people. However, dipplayer (and putin) fail to realize that Jewish history built up a culture of learning around the Old Testament and the Jewish law. Without a land or common spoken language learning was what drew the community together as well as a path to status and even wealth.

Basically the intellectual success (percieved or real) of the Jewish people is largely due to the culture that formed around Torah and Talmud study. It was hardly inate...

And you have to love characterizing "religious Jews" beliefs with Hannukah, the holiday made prominent by secular Jews and, more directly, Americans celebrating Christmas.

Putin, Mujus, you guys are funny.

Look, can't we all just agree and say that the bible has no problem outright with intellectualism - it's only when it contradicts the Christian teachings that we are suddenly urged to suppress it.

"The Dark Ages are a myth, created by Protestants who wished to denigrate Catholicism."

No the term was created by renaissance humanists opposed to the denigration of ancient scholarship by the medievals and the prevailing culture of religious ignorance, where the only thing worth studying was 'god'.

"Dipplayer's argument is that the Jews are smart and literate, so therefor the fact that they treasure the Old Testament and Jewish law means religion is accepted by smart people. "

Which has nothing to do with whether the OT actually promotes and advocates for learning and intellectual pursuits.

"However, dipplayer (and putin) fail to realize that Jewish history built up a culture of learning around the Old Testament and the Jewish law."

My reading of history was that the Jewish enlightenment and culture of learning took place precisely when it broke from Rabbinic tradition/halakah. But hey maybe Santa is on the side of the halakah types over the reformers who developed an interest in Jewish history and worked for political emancipation.

"And you have to love characterizing "religious Jews" beliefs with Hannukah, the holiday made prominent by secular Jews and, more directly, Americans celebrating Christmas."

It's a rabbinical festival that celebrates resistance to assimilation. It was developed, or rather, emphasized by rabbis in the USA, in response to the growing number of Jews celebrating Christmas in the late 19th century.

"Look, can't we all just agree and say that the bible has no problem outright with intellectualism "

I can't agree if it's quite obviously not true. Stop trying to claim that the religion is not bad, only misused.

"It's a rabbinical festival that celebrates resistance to assimilation."

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated (in the new year). :-)

Sorry. It had to be said.

Jesus knew the scriptures extensively, quoting them often. Torah scholarship was the highest form of learning in his society. So obviously he was not opposed to being educated.

Yes, Torah study led to a literate and accomplished culture among the Jews. TORAH STUDY. All that studying of the Hebrew Bible, and they missed the point--which Putin can see better than they--that learning is baaaad.

My point is that it is pretty arrogant to think you know better what the message of the Bible is than those who have spent centuries studying it.

Just because theology has mo meaning for you doesn't mean it is not a serious intellectual pursuit.

Also, modern scholarship has a much more balanced view of the Middle Ages. Look into the Carolingian renaissance. Or the High Middle ages of the 12th and 13 centuries.

"Torah scholarship was the highest form of learning in his society. So obviously he was not opposed to being educated."

Then why didn't he write anything down? Why are all the Jesus stories oral traditions written down centuries later by people who didn't even speak the same language?
And what does this have to do with what the book actually says, or is that irrelevant to you?

"All that studying of the Hebrew Bible, and they missed the point--which Putin can see better than they--that learning is baaaad."

Notice that most of the anti-education passages come from the NT, especially Paul's letters. The bible says the only thing worth studying is god, too much book learning is "weary on the body". It says so plainly. But I'm used to your obfuscation by now.

"My point is that it is pretty arrogant to think you know better what the message of the Bible is than those who have spent centuries studying it."

Apparently you speak for all as to what they believe the message is? But that's not arrogant? I forgot every Theist is an infallible pope when it comes to biblical study, never mind that you can't have a conversation with them without them trying to confoundify and obfuscate everything written in it.

"Just because theology has mo meaning for you doesn't mean it is not a serious intellectual pursuit."

Just because you want to deflect from the issue doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't openly and repeatedly denigrate intellectual pursuits and book learning. Keep going with the red herrings.

You bash the NT and then quote from the OT on "book study wearying the body." Typical.
Also, if you don't think book study can be wearying, I doubt you have put much effort into your own studies.

"too much book learning "

Please note the use of the words "too" and "much". It doesn't say book learning is, it says "too much". Big distinction there.

As far as Jesus not writing anything down, we don't know that. We may not have it, but then I bet we don't have everything ever written by Mozart or Shakespeare or Dickens or even Obiwanobiwan. But more to the point, study and learning doesn't require the student to scribble and oral transference of knowledge has a long history. It doesn't make it any less educational because it was written down.

Jesus stories were written down within a few decades, btw. Which you would know if you'd ever wearied yourself with real study.

No, I don't claim to know better. I have studied my tradition. I know what many smart people have written on the topic. Because Christians believe in thinking and learning.

"Also, if you don't think book study can be wearying, I doubt you have put much effort into your own studies."

THat's not the point of that passage and you know it, obfuscator.

"You bash the NT and then quote from the OT on "book study wearying the body." Typical. "

And if you were actually interested in thinking and learning you'd not distort what I said and recognize that I said *most* of the passages came from the NT, not all.

But it's easier for you to deflect from the issue than address it.

"Jesus stories were written down within a few decades, btw. Which you would know if you'd ever wearied yourself with real study."

No they weren't. But why bother telling the truth when your whole belief system is one big sadistic lie.

"No, I don't claim to know better."

But you still speak for all of them. Nice.

"Please note the use of the words "too" and "much". It doesn't say book learning is, it says "too much". Big distinction there."

How come none of you Christians bother to read? You implore people to read context and reading the whole passage until it doesn't suit you. The passage implores people to not study anything that doesn't involve study of god.

"Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them."

"As far as Jesus not writing anything down, we don't know that. "

Really we have millions of Jesus freaks and historians and antiquarians scouring the earth for anything Jesus and can't turn up a single thing written down. But you have an excuse for everything. The new excuse is literacy isn't necessary for education!