1908, ouch.

History doesn't matter, the past is the past, it is about what intentions the current positions and orders telecommunicate. Both Burgundy and North Sea were threatening and I had nothing to answer these threats. I was completely exposed and the least I feel France could have done if he would have truly played for a draw is retreating to respectable locations where he couldn't sweep in at once.

Yep. Paranoia drove this one. We worked well, I gave him Edinburg. I was occupied in the south, needed a build and Germany had Sweden. Then Germany NMR's and then comes after me and throws the game to Russia...WTF?

If I leave NS and you move in, then I am exposed. You're asking me to expose myself so you feel safe and then YOU get the possible easy jump and take. Face it dude, your paranoia and NMR bothered and EASY stop.

I could never move into NS that quickly I'd had to built a fleet first and then still take 2 turns. I knew a fleet built wouldn't go over well with you, that's the reason I did not go for it. I don't think it's paranoia either, here is why.

If I were in your position, I would have stabbed Germany once Italy was dealt with, or close to, and Russia was in tatters while Germany was still very exposed.
I think that would have been the best play with the given positions maybe you see that differently, but that's the view I had and that's what I acted on.

You had a fleet in Denmark dude. So your whole thesis is shit. B

Yeah, looks like you messed up, and then... nothing, russia steam-rolled you, france had just started busting up italy, and turkey was in no position to do anything.

Looks like Russia beat germany, and it doesn't matter what you wanted at that point, you got beat hard. With a potential ally in france you might have managed a draw, but by turning on him you virtually guaranteed your own defeat.

I know I only have myself to blame for my defeat, that is not the question. I was asking if anyone could see my point of view that France was imposing too much of a threat on me which in the end justified my aggressiveness towards him after I was doomed anyhow.

If you were worried about France, why did you end up moving a German army into Rumania? You didn't bother to build a defensive position versus France or Russia but kept chasing short-term gains for a couple of centers. That's why you lost, not because France allegedly stabbed you.

He NMRed in '09 as well. I didn't know what to do. I couldn't let Russia take all his SCs un opposed. Then he come back and attacks me. It was a very strong alliance til then. My position would have got me 1 SC on a stab -- Edin or Belgium.

I don't think throwing the game is ever truly justifiable unless your about to lose anyhow, and feel like spiting someone.
You evidently felt something similar to that, but I believe you to be mistaken in that thought.

I agree that France had a perfect position to stab you, and every reason to do so. But please tell me why that "justifies your aggressiveness towards him?" Your goal is to win or end up in a draw. What you should have done is ensure that Russia remained too strong for France to stab you without Russia solo-ing. With 6/7 centers, that's easily done.

I never said France stabbed me. I said, like bas confirms, that he was in a prime position and did not move away from it despite my moves clearly signaling that I was. Like bas said again, I was not building a defensive position at all. The fact France kept his backstab positions was a slap in the face to me.

If he wanted to solidify our alliance he should have retreated to Paris and he could have given me STp after I had gave him Norway.
Maybe I could have stalled out, but I guess I was too tired and upset with France to follow that path.

I also feel throwing a game is very viable, it is one of the main deterrents I have to make sure an partner wouldn't do anything against the good spirit of our alliance, which I felt France was doing by maintaining his positions.

After I GAVE you Edinburgh. You're making up a threat. I was clearly occupied in the south versus Italy.

Again, if you hadn't given me Edinburgh, I would have turned against you and Russia would have left me alone because you would threaten the solo. There is nothing good spirited about that, it's just good play. But the fact remains there was no single turn in which you could not have taken back Edinburgh if you wanted with the snap of your fingers. Not even when my fleet was stationed there...

So me having Edinburgh was like living on borrowed time, you never consolidated that center for me by staying in the NS instead of the English channel

You presume an incredible amount about players actions. My giving you Edinburgh was a token of friendship. You can concoct any scenarios you want to suit you paranoid delusions but I was as friendly and non-aggressive as I felt I could be without putting MYSELF at risk. If you expect others to open up before you trust them, you should have solidified you defenses BEFORE you went on the attack.

Russia was invading me remember? Besides you were ahead by taking England before me. I could have solidified my defenses and stay small and unimportant defending both against Russia as well as you becoming easy prey. Or signal the next step in our alliance and open myself up, hoping you would realize that I would immediately turn back if you were to stab me. You didn't, but you kept an unfair balance at our borders, this is clearly the truth. I filled in the reasons for you doing so and I disagreed with them and thought they were against our alliance. Also you not handing me STp, which was eventually the ultimate trigger should not be underestimated.

Quid pro quo.

In my country people say: opinion is like an ass, everybody has one.

So here is mine, since I was in the game also. Lopt did overreact, but your moves Michigen were also a little bit to passive agresive, you were making a perfect possition for a solo, everybody saw that. When everyone voted a draw, it was only you and a crazy Italian not pressing it.

Lopt had to keep calm, but he did not, which happens to everyone from time to time. I left you guys Scandinavia hoping that there will start your honeymoon problems and it worked. Better luck next time. There is no reason for this much of drama, this is not that unusual.

I don't think it's drama, we're just exchanging views. But you see it correctly. He was too passive-aggressive and setting himself up for the sol. I took offense to it and in the light of optimal play, I did overreact to it, because I could have gotten myself into a draw. Absolutely.

But Diplomacy isn't played by cold-hearted robots, and while my moves might seem irrational, and are so to a certain extent, there is a logic behind them and I won't see it dismissed without good reasoning.

I'm tired of talking about. Perhaps I could have moved out of Bur and NS. But the NMR in '09 made everything uneven. Lopt, IMO, overreacted and ruined a good thing we had going. I'm done.

Let's have a make-up game sometime MM ;), they say it's the best kind of game there is!

Aahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa threesome it shall be! :DDDDDDDDDD

Lopt, you are missing the point completely. The goal of the game should be to win or be part of a draw. France was playing that game nicely, by positioning his units optimally but not taking your centers to avoid a Russian solo. You're blaming him for playing well. If you had played well, a draw would have been totally possible.

There are two ways you could have managed drawing : either convince France to voluntarily give up solo potentials, or make sure he cannot attack you without Russia winning. France has no reason to abandon his well placed units, nor did you signal anything to him indicating that he should. If you wanted to see Burgundy gone, you could have ordered Bel S Bur-Pic instead of holding for 9 consecutive moves. Alternatively, you could have held the line you set up in 1906. All those moves to War/Gal/Ukr/Rum did nothing to advance your agenda. Instead, you should have kept Russia big but under control.

Long story short: You lost because you played poorly. France played well but lost anyway.

You miss the point. Had I kept my cool, I could have gotten a draw, I agree.

But how it was, France had basically planted his foot on my throat and he wouldn't remove it. His right to do so, sure and I don't blame it at all for him. But the result in this case was that I 'snapped' at his passive-aggressive stance, which basically said he would fuck me over eventually and decided to take revenge.

I doubt a move to Bur or Pic would have created the desired effect, seeing how he was insistent on staying put even when I moved away.

Could I have drawn, yes probably, did France play well? Technically, perhaps, but he didn't take into account the effects his positioning would have on me.

Lopt - Autumn 06 you were in a strong position against Russia, he only had one move on Warsaw, Galicia to Warsaw supported by Moscow, what else did you think he would do there?
If you had held on to the Warsaw with support from Prussia it could have turned out very differently....... one mistake can turn a game.

I made many mistakes, really.

Did you learn anything from them?

You're playing a gunboat. So whatever you want France to do or not do, you'll have to somehow communicate. You may have felt France was 'passive-aggressive' and 'said he would fuck you over eventually', but how could France know you were about to 'snap'? There's nothing in your moves that suggests anything of the like. Instead, you supported his convoy to Norway.

One thing you could have done is order Belgium to support Bur-Pic, which France should interpret as a request to move his Burgundy army away (to Picardy probably).

The main thing I can see from this game is that I don´t want to play with Lopt, unless I manage to use telepathy over the web.......

gameID=133319

Because everyone, even Lopt deserves to make things better next time around. This is for all of us players who make mistakes when we play, especially because sometimes we try to be telepathic but end up being telepathetic ..... this game is for y'all !!

I did learn from them yea. I might try to use support orders like bas suggests, Though I'm not sure they would've been read, but I could have tried better to communicate my problem. However I think me moving to STp was a clear signal I wanted to get in, he refused, 2 times. His argument being that an army in Stp would be more useful, which I feel like hardly mattered at that point of time.

And rdrivera, unless you are telepathic or never play live, you WILL play with me, because anon is the standard..

All-in-all, hindsight is twenty-twenty. I don't feel like my reason has been entirely unjustified, but I do agree I could have dealt with the situation in a more proper manner.

@Lopt - I was just kidding, but in fact I don´t play live games at all. I tried once and this was my only resign as some idiot decide to not end the game.

And on a more serious note, you have some valid points on your reasoning, but throwing the game is way too overreaction, you have a lot of other options like others have pointed. But at least maybe you learned something about gunboats, specially that people should always use and read the orders to comunicate (and a lot do not).