I'm the anti-Draug, my wife is and has always been (except for a short recession addled time) the main breadwinner. Hell, I don't even have a job right now, I just live off her.

I've usually lived by the rule of "whoever comes up with the idea pays" so if I ask a woman out to dinner, I pay. If a woman asks me to lunch, I expect her to pay. That's how I roll and it's only steered me wrong once, which was more funny than traumatic. I dated a pretty crazy person for a while, and at the end of it all she claimed that I owed her something like $1,000. I had no idea how that was possible, so I asked, "For what?"

She had kept a ledger of every time that she paid for a meal, and also included the following two things in it:

1) Expenses for fixing my car after she messed it up (she drove over one of those small concrete barriers in parking lots and my car was low to the ground so it caused some damage).

2) Expenses for "wear and tear" on her car after she volunteered it for a road trip.

First of all, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind asking for either of those two things, and second of all, it seems like asking for both hits some kind of odd contradiction. I didn't give her a cent, and told her to feel free to take me to small claims court (she didn't). There's a lot of other crazy wrapped up in there, but that's the relevant part.

@SacredDigits lol
i dated a women for one year,her father was paying for the house so we didnt have to pay the rent,when we broke up,she wanted me to pay all the year rent,100,000 shequel(25,000 usd).why is it my fault that she was living in such expensive house?

Lol, Mujus, what gave you that impression? I'm way too young to get married (legally I can but mentally absolutely not, though two old classmates of mine are).

@Celtic - You have a job. My wife is a housewife. So anytime she gets any money (inheritance, yard sale income, whatever) she hordes it like it's her Precious.

@taos - $25K for a year! Holy shit! That's like hyper expensive! I rented a nice 3 bedroom house that was 1 year old when we moved in for just $13K a year. 3 bedrooms, two baths on a lake. Gas fireplace, cathedral cielings in the living room. Full basement. two car garage. Energy star home and appliances. Loaded. Nice part of town. Near an elementary school and on a cul-de-sac.

http://www.homes.com/Home-Prices/ID-600031526921/1565-MARIETTA-DR/

The images are a few years old (we lived there for 5 years).

Even our present place with part rent and part applied to the purchase price every month is only a little over $16K a year.

I get that Ohio and Kentucky are cheaper than NYC or LA, but what part of Israel do you live in that has rent that high? WOW!

That doesn't seem so bad. My roommate and I are each paying $12k/year for a 2br, 2.5bth apartment. It really depends on the location.

Where are you at that you spend 2K month for an apartment? I know DC is expensive (my neice is always talking about how her and her boyfriend pay that much combined) and obviously, NYC and LA can get into 5 figures for rent each month for nice places in safe parts of town.

It's not about "WOMEN"... it's not about "MEN".

It's only got to do with that person you have an interest in and paying attention to what would please them. From one person to the next, that can change dramatically.

Another way to realize that this is right is to think of it in the context of same-sex relationships. What are the rules there? Where are the conventional guidelines? Yet, I'm willing to bet that some generally end up paying (because it projects something about them that they like) and that some generally end up being treated (again, because it projects something that they want to project). So at the end of the day, it's really just a way to connect to someone and show who you are through actions rather than words. In a society as fucking sadly capitalistic as ours, "paying" for something is a very telling act.

In this topic, Cachimbo reveals that he's the "I left my wallet at home" type.

:)

My buddy Gary used to say "the pitcher always pays." Don't know if he was joking or not, but, well... There it is.

Some same sex relationships (like some hetero relationships) don't have a clear pitcher or catcher. Would that mean that taking the bill would be a symbol of who wants to pitch that night? What happens when you both go for it? Or neither?

It's only premarital sex if you get married.

the 25k included also taxes and all kind of other stupid expences we needed for the house +interess,the house fully equiped with everything,really luxurious,thats the reason i accepted to move in,it was too much for me but she allready had a contract and she said her father is paying,really rich family,she was used to live like a princess.
israel is really expensive thats why many israelies buy houses in u.s.a.you have to be a milioner to buy a house here.
that was not the point.women get crazy when you brake up the relationship.

SacredDigits, us faggots mostly just laugh at straight people's narrow definitions of partnership and gender roles. I'm bisexual and Swedish, and when I go on a date with women or men, we usually just split the bill, or if one of us makes more money, he/she can buy. Bill-splitting is the norm over here anyway, don't know about a lot of other countries but it seems rather American to me to expect the man to pay. Would love to hear how it is in other countries. To me, it just sounds like cultural baggage from the time women didn't have money that has become a part of the courtship ritual. Also, waving money around is a power play, and in our western culture, men often feel the need to establish a power dynamic with women. I'd be very careful before bringing in biology, I'm sure it plays a part, but just shrugging and saying "it's biology!" is a very convenient way of not giving it more thought.

On the topic of gay pitchers/catchers, it's a ridiculous stereotype on one hand, and a real problem on the other. This is so ingrained in our culture that there are those in the gay community who get stuck in that mentality, and need to define themselves by those terms. Same thing in lesbian relationships, where some feel the need to define who is the "man". Also, the "catcher" is supposed to be more feminine. It's so destructive to carry over gender roles from the straight world into what is really an emerging culture still, with all the possibilities of breaking free from gender constructs. Once again, I can only really speak about Sweden. Don't know what the gay scene is really like in the states.

Sweden was always ahead when it comes to equality and modernism.
great ppl!
i believe in the future we will all split the bill.
once i didnt have money but i wanted to ask a girl out,so i told her to buy me a drink and she did,we were couple for five years,so it doesnt have to be "only the man pays".
we are in the 21 century,everything is posible.

It's properly called extra-marital sex cause it's outside of marriage. Maybe it's a form of meta though. Metasex?

Well, obviously you have how it is in America. When I was in Japan, I dated a woman whose father paid for the dates, probably a holdover from a dowry system. That was super uncomfortable when he whipped out his wallet and handed over cash, since both of us had decent jobs and could clearly afford dinner and drinks. But turning it down would have been offensive, so we took it. A few times we more or less snuck out without him knowing specifically so that awkward scene didn't transpire.

Well, Japan and South Korea are rather infamous for being industrialised well-to-do nations with horrible gender stereotypes. But that's interesting, always fun to hear what the dynamics are like in other cultures.

And going back to your point about same sex relationships and pitchers and catchers and whatnot, I know several hetero couples where the power dynamic leans towards the woman, and I know those couples sometimes have issues socially because people don't "get" that. The gender role mindset is pretty destructive to people whose preferences run along those lines too, not just gays.

Move to Holland, I hear the dutch split the check ;)

Sure, but the same people who would be uncomfortable with a strong woman are usually uncomfortable with gay people anyway. That's what's so interesting and in a way liberating with gay culture, since it's still so outside the norm, there's no need to try to fit into other societal stereotypes, and you get a kind of outsider's perspective on it. However, sadly, those stereotypes and gender roles are also heavily internalised, as is the idea that gender and sexuality go together. Gender and sexuality are in reality just two different things who often overlap, but when they don't, it creates a ton of confusion, both for the person and the people around him/her. Add to this how gender and power intersect and you end up pretty fucked up until you mature enough to differentiate and analyse these things.

There's not a default "need" to fit gay culture into other societal stereotypes, but it definitely happens. A lot of people are still stuck with some ideas from the society at large, and that's going to keep happening for the forseeable future. It's interesting to me how much emerging gay culture helped the leather culture and BDSM in general get more widespread and accepted due to the levels of liberation that you discuss, though. I don't know, the whole way that people perceive sex is interesting.

As an anecdote, my brother is gay, and one time I was out with he and his boyfriend. Someone asked them which one of them was "the man." They both looked at this individual curiously and said, "We...both are? That's kind of the point of being gay."

How to deal with paying for dates:
(1) Split the first check, no matter what. If you fuck it up then you don't want either party paying for the whole thing.
(2) If there is a second check, and that second check comes at the end of a good date, pay for it and tell her to pay for next time. If it's not looking good, split the check and cut your losses.
(3) Third one is covered if you get that far.
(4) Wing it, you're dating now, you guys can figure something out, no need for hard-and-fast rules.

Addendums:
(1) If she really adheres to gender roles, that means you're paying the check. Deal with it, or don't go out with her, your pick, but starting any kind of serious squabble over paying dinner bills is a terrible way to get anywhere with anyone ever.
(2) If she talks a lot about being self-reliant or along those lines, you can stick to the above guidelines, but if she objects and wants to split a check where I said not to do so, then don't fight over it. It's just a dinner bill, and come on - this probably means she's offering to pay her half instead of having you pay the whole thing. If you're going to insist upon your right to pay more money for a date to the chagrin OF your date, you're an idiot.
(3) If you're in Japan and her father offers to pay, either (a) take the money or (b) meet up in secret if your pride is understandably slighted at the rather childish sight of you, a grown man, being handed money not by your own parents (which would be bad enough) but your DATE's parents to pay for the night. But don't raise a stink.

Basically, those guidelines should work, but if there's any extenuating circumstances with your date or her family that would create a conflict, go with whatever those circumstances dictate. The main thing isn't whether you pay the whole bill, it's whether you can solve the puzzle without making an ass out of yourself, and it's not a difficult thing to do.

As an addendum/different view on what PE says, I've found in the past that I've had phenomenal success with ensuring that the first date/several dates were of a free/low cost nature. Find an interest that you share (which should be the first thing that you find out about someone even before dating) and find a way to do something along those lines in your area cheaply or free. Art galleries, parks, some concerts, etc. I think that people get wrapped up in the idea of money being important when really it's how much you paid attention that's important.

I have to say that I also enjoy inviting someone home and cooking and hanging out much more than going out. A comfortable environment, no cost issue and a meal with a personal touch. Although if you're a shitty cook, that might not be the best idea.

IUf you live in the US, you might get viewed as a sexual predator if it's a first or even second date. Safety is a big concern over here.

Why do men have to pay? Because radical feminism - the idea that women are 100 the same as men - is a myth of the Liberal media. Fact is, men are better than women in SOME aspects...women are better than men in SOME aspects. For example, WOMEN control who gets sex when...thus they can demand we pay for dinner and can more often than men choose to not work if the man has a good enough job. And it *works well*. I never minded paying for my wife when she was my girlfriend. But bottom line...all women, in their gut, know that it is an unequal relationship between men and they use it against us....hence we pay whenever they demand we do so.

When I was dating, I operated on the default that I would pay for everything. If a girl wanted to split or take turns, then that was just gravy and I happily accepted.

Now that I'm married, I still operate on the default that I pay for everything. I work, and my wife doesn't. I view everything that needs to get done -- errands, paying bills, housework, cooking, etc. -- as my responsibility. Anything my wife does in that regard is just gravy and I happily accept.

By assuming I am responsible for everything (monetarily and non-monetarily), I manage my expectations, am rarely disappointed, and am frequently pleasantly surprised.

"IUf you live in the US, you might get viewed as a sexual predator if it's a first or even second date. Safety is a big concern over here."

Is this really still a big deal with cell phones?