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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
SHAKESPEARES AND EINSTEINS OF WEBDIP--DEFEND THE HONOR OF YOUR FIELD!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=73825
We've had some fun, friendly Field vs. Field fracases...so it's time to take it to the next level--a WebDip invitational! :)
Bio Majors, Physics Folks, Mathematicians, Literaturists (I'm stealing that one, abgemacht! lol) come for the discourse, stay for the 50 D and the honor of your Discipline...and may the "Most Worthy" (Nerdy?) Discipline Win!
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Flameofarnor (306 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
Pure Old School Diplomacy
Set 2 hours from now, the game "Old School Diplomacy" will begin. All of the ORIGINAL rules from Avalon Hill's Diplomacy apply, so come in if your feeling up for some classic play. No passwords and all out diplomatic discussion is allowed with a bet-in of 10, so please come join up!
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Flameofarnor (306 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
Join Up!
We need 4 more players. Game starts in one hour! Classic style Diplomacy where all of the traditional rules apply. Join up now!
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Flameofarnor (306 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
15 Minutes Remaining! Need one more player!
gameID=73891 One player left somebody join up! 15 minutes till game begins. Classic Diplomacy style.
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Flameofarnor (306 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
30 Minutes Left
Classic Diplomacy game with all of the traditional rules. 12 hour turn intervals. Join up now! gameID=73891
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tboin4 (100 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
Linear Algebra Help
Hey guys, I'm studying for my linear algebra class and I'm having some problems with notation.
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
@abgemacht, jmo:

OK, here's my attempt.

Something an increasing majority of English, Philosophy, Math, and Science majors can probably all agree on...

Either there is no God, or if there is "something out there," it's probably not at all what we in the West have supposed it to be for over 2,000 years or so now.

As such, our understanding of how the universe works and what it all means is quite possibly the most uncertain-yet-free in history; the more and more old dogmas of religion get shot down by a special team up of Scientific Inquiry, Philosophical Reasoning, and Literary Persuasion to win people over, the more and more we're able to view things from a comparatively-new point of view, one that increasingly has Science and Logic rather than Religion and Faith to back it up.

As a result, though, there inevitably comes the question...

Why?
Why should we care?
Why does it matter to *me* if there is one universe or a multiverse?
Of what significance am *I* in a world which is one among hundreds?
Of what significance am *I* if I'm the product of evolution and not some Divine Creator?
Of what significance is *anything* we learn if there is no Final Consequence or Justice?
If no one is "watching"...why go on with the show at all?

We have a rather unique ability as human beings to both ascribe and crave meaning--

A slug or a snail or a snake doesn't need to wonder what his place is in the universe...he hardly cares what his place is in the ecosystem, all he cares about is reproducing and eating and shelter and things of a strictly base-nature.

But we as human beings, to cite Maslow's Pyramid of Needs, can move BEYOND that base...and, indeed, it would seem as though if there is any human nature at all, it is a nature that urges us to do just that, to move beyond the basic and create for ourselves greater intellectual, emotional, and psychological goods, in the form of this sort of striving for a sense of importance, meaning...

Really, that idea of "meaning" right there is the key--

We can't say 2+2=4 has some sort of real "meaning" to it beyond two somethings added to another two somethings of a like kind equal four somethings of that kind.

But when we say something like "justice," for example, we have to pause for a moment and think--what do we "mean" by that, what *is* justice?

And a partial reason for THAT, I would posit, is that justice, just like goodness and evilness and virtue and like things, are ALL human constructs, to one extent or another; we may derive some of these ideas from observation in part--ie, we may get a sense of "hierarchy" in viewing ants or bees--but observation generally only gives the "what"...

It's human thought and human construction that needs to give the "why," and without the "why," there would seem to be no meaning to life--

And, to be honest, there quite probably ISN'T an inherent, intrinsic meaning to "life."

"Life" is just the net result of certain atomic and chemical reactions.
Being "Human" isn't much more, then, than belonging to a certain genus and species.

To be a human BEING, however, requires something more...something science and math cannot provide, and something, it would seem, we are either predisposed to desire or, after 5,000 years of desiring it, have become as a race rather conditioned to desiring it.

We need meaning--and with none readily available in God-form, we need to CREATE that meaning, which means we need a vehicle for the Creation of Meaning.

Enter Literature to this end.

In the first place, what was the first "literature?"

The first "literature" we get are myths, legends, folktales, epics, and religious stories.

Contained in every one, no matter how disparate, are both ideas on how we might live as well as a specter from the past of how they lived and what they thought.

Why is this significant?

"Literature" is, when you boil it down, a way of conveying:

1. A story which
2. Conveys ideas, morals, meanings, and other abstract ideas in a palatable manner and
3. Structures them in such a way so that they can
4. Be passed on as
5. These ideas, whatever they are, create a sense of meaning that
6. Allow for both Maslow's higher areas to be reached as well as
7. A certain sense of immortality in that the same ideas/stories "we" share and see will be shared and seen by those 500 years later, and THEY will
8. Either feel what we felt, so immortality via stories=immortality via children a bit, OR
9. Will reject these ideas or else build off them to create a new idea, in EITHER CASE
10. There is a sense of shared continuity and community in Human Construction.

As such, it is through Literature we may do at least two things science cannot:

1. We may construct a sense of self-importance and meaning every sort of scientific discovery would seem to oppose, as, strictly speaking, we ARE "just" bits of carbon atoms strung together in a certain configuration as one of millions if not billions of organisms on one planet in a solar system of eight or nine--I can't help it, I still count Pluto, I was taught Pluto since I was 3 years old, Pluto has planetary tenure as far as I'm concerned, damnit!--planets with dozens of moons in a galaxt that spans many million lightyears that is only one of many more galaxies in universe that is expanding outward and now, perhaps, may be only one of many universes in a multiverse.

THAT is both awfully beautiful and beautifully awful--it can be a bit overwhelming at first, especially given that we as a race are really just now starting to embrace this larger view in larger numbers...5,000 years of recorded history or so, and only in the last century to century and a half have we really begun to fully, on a large-scale, doubt the idea that our planet and we as a race lack any sort of intrinsic importance and are, in all logical respects, a meaningless speck amidst an interstellar picture so huge we don't even have the whole thing mapped out yet, not even close.

In this respect, Literature may be seen as the "appropriate replacement" for Religion.

After all, what was religion in the end but a set of beliefs that were supposed to give us moral and metaphysical structure in our lives, and thus a sense of meaning, with the knowledge that someone "cared," ie, God/Allah/Jesus/Zeus/Vishnu/etc.

Thanks to that team-up by Darwin and Nietzsche, God is Dead.

And with God/gods go the religious sense of importance we as a race once had, an importance science can't fill, as 1. As previously stated, the evidence is against our being altogether special and 2. Science works on facts, NOT on constructs of the human condition...that is, there is no scientific formulation for "Virtue." We may discover what we are biologically conditioned to perceive as good or bad or pleasurable or otherwise, but for these to reach anywhere beyond that first, base level of Maslow's Pyramid, we need something besides raw facts, but rather, a sense that "good" and "bad" mean something, and that our attainment of these things means something.

Now, a FAILING of religion was in its dogmatism--this is "The Book," "The God," The Ten Commandments," "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before ME."

Literature and Philosophy improve upon this failing--you can read Shakespeare and Tolstoy, and even though the latter thought the former was a crude craftsmen with no talent and couldn't really ever see why "the Bard" was so beloved, there is no commandment stating "Thou Shalt Love No Authors Before Me."

So we can read "Hamlet" and "War and Peace" alike, derive meaning from their characters and situations and speeches, and not have an issue; we may like one over the other (I've only read snippets of him and I already find Tolstoy plodding in a way even Dostoyevsky isn't) but that doesn't mean we can't take meaning from both...

There is no "heresy" in Literature.

Further, there is no inherent conflict with Science, either, beyond the basic generalization that Literature is generally more abstract and interpretative whereas Science is more rules-based and may have more concrete applications.

Literature knows its place in relation to Science, and does not presuppose to transgress that divide. No English major is going to go to be so absurd as to think attending a Shakespeare play every Sunday and praying to the Bard will ensure an afterlife of bliss and happiness or a cure to their diseases. In fact, Emily Dickinson herself wrote in a poem once:

""Faith" is a fine invention
When Gentlemen can see—
But Microscopes are prudent
In an Emergency."

And that's just it--Literature is an invention, a tool to give our lives meaning.

We get ideas of justice, good, evil, right, wrong, daring, and a sense of the epic from Literature, and these ideas are what make us more than the mere animal we scientifically are.

I've quoted a poet...now, to quote a scientist, and not just any old scientist...

"Science without Religion Is Lame, Religion without Science Is Blind"

-Albert Einstein

Replace "Religion" with "Literature," and we as a race both have our heads on straight and a reason to continue "spiritually"...without the spirits and tautologies and books that advocate infanticide and rape and slavery.

The other great reason?

2. Two things certain...

"Death and Taxes."

We all will die.
And NOW we've cast off that old, erroneous idea of Heaven and Hell and a sort of "second life after death."
As such, our sense of an eternal existence or stay as an entity in this realm or another, too, is gone.

Once again, where Religion has failed, and where Science gives the cold, hard facts of the blank canvas, Literature is able to paint a picture and ensure meaning once more.

Earlier I said that Literature was, initially, really just stories to pass down morals in the hopes of teaching the younger generation what they needed to know to come of age and survive.

With the Death of God and the Rise of Secularism, stories are all the more important, as they allow for what Religion no longer can--

A realistic sense of that same immortality within the human sphere of meaning and ideals that we as a race have constructed for ourselves.

We had a Macbeth reference earlier in the thread...well, let it be said that Shakespeare WILL be read "'til the last syllable of recorded time," or to put it another way, and perhaps the best way, Sonnet 18--"So long as men can breathe and eyes can see/So long lives this and this gives life to thee."

Shakespeare, thus, "lives on" into the modern day, because at least a certain essence of what he was, namely, his words, are still "in the discussion," as it were.

Think of it this way:

When we debate here, generally we do cite figures and their ideas to go along with our own...

And as we do that, we ensure that at least SOMEONE, SOMETHING in this scientific vastness DOES ascribe meaning, DOES care about the Labors of Hercules or the Quest for the Holy Grail or Hamlet's pontificating on "What a piece of work is a man."

Think of all the names, and with them, all the characters, places, people, and ideas that are preserved from the indifference of the scientific universe by the UNIVERSE MAN CREATES FOR HIMSELF VIA LITERATURE.

For the Author, Literature allows for their own preservation.

And for the Reader, it allows one to continue to construct those human ideals of meaning in the first place WITHOUT going back to Square One each time because we as a culture remember the stories and authors...

Were they not taught, we'd start over with every generation and not progress, and THAT, too, is another conceit that Literature allows--the idea of progress, and a sort of goal that we as a race are striving for.

We now know it's not god, it's not Heaven...

But if we can believe even still that there was something of worth in Plato's ideas, and then Aristotle took us a step further, and Descartes a step further than that, and Spinoza, Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche, Russell, Wittgenstein, Heidegger, Sartre...all getting closer and closer to some "truth," some human-constructed idea of "truth" that, like meaning, seems as if it is either something we are built to require or else have come to require, much like meaning...

It is in teaching Philosophy and Literature that we preserve both the closest thing to a "soul" we have--that is our words, personalities, and ideas--for those of us who further our sense of understanding and being, and in doing so, allow ourselves the ability to build upon their work, and reach those upper levels of Maslow's Pyramid, to "actualize" ourselves.

This isn't a quest for the Ubermensch or for a Philosopher King.
This is the continued construction of a collective human consciousness...

This is humanity taking on the role of the God it has rightfully cast off and, by embracing both the logic of Science and the idealism of Literature, finding a way to give itself a two-world system once more...

Not a division between the Heaven and Earth, but one between the Universes of Scientific and Humanistic Truths.

We inhabit the a Scientific Universe, and in it, we are mere tenants, we are specks.
We create the Humanistic Universe, and in it, we are the Creators, we are gods...

WE HAVE MEANING THIS WAY...WITHOUT claiming the Earth was made 6,000 years ago and that two people in a garden with a talking snake are the reason we are all terrible, suffering sinners that should beg forgiveness.

We teach Shakespeare so we can learn and preserve from his ideas, thus, and to inspire, even if it's an inspired hatred or boredom, a rejection of the Bard...

But it's also essential to upholding that final human construct we all need, namely, that someone WILL care once we die.

If we don't teach and care about Shakespeare or Dante or Homer--who will?

Likewise, if we don't teach or care about Literature, and the meaning it allows for in its shared role with Science...who will, and how can we ever rise above the mere sum of our parts?

Science gives us an understanding of the Homo Sapien Human in the larger universe.
Literature gives us a reason to believe that human is a Human Being...and worthwhile.

(OK, that was my best shot!) :)
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Dec 11 UTC
@obi

I'm sorry, but that sounds like a load of rubbish to me.

Perhaps I was unclear. If I asked people of various professions why they did their job, this is what I suspect they'd say:

Physicist: I find the universe fascinating and want to understand it better. By better understanding our world, we can make our lives better.

Doctor: I enjoy helping people and medicine is important for increasing quality of life.

Historian: I enjoy learning about the past and by learning about our mistakes, perhaps we can avoid them in the future.

Lituraturist: I like reading books.


Do you see the point I'm trying to make? I understand that * literature* contributes to society, but who do *people who study literature* contribute to society?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Dec 11 UTC
To be even clearer: I think music is wonderful. And I think musicians contribute greatly to society. But I think someone who's sole profession was to study and write about other people's music would be pretty worthless. That is my same opinion about people who write literature vs. people who just study other people's literature.
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Dec 11 UTC
This is a really interesting discussion. I'm going to take my own swing at it later, albeit without all the nihilism.
(Why this pre-announcement? Just so I'll have left a bookmarker if by then the discussion has veered off to God-knows-where).
fulhamish (4134 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
@ abge. Would you say the same about scientific journalists?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Dec 11 UTC
No, because science is hard and scientists are notorious for writing poorly. I think scientific journalists fill an important role by making science more important to people.

On the other hand, Salinger wrote a book that was impossible to decipher by anyone who didn't have a PhD in Literature, then I think he'd be a failure as an author, because his profession is to use words to give a message to an audience.

That's the difference I see.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
02 Dec 11 UTC
"No, because science is hard and scientists are notorious for writing poorly. I think scientific journalists fill an important role by making science more important to people."

Wow. That whole paragraph is fucked up. tha's what I get for typing while talking on the phone.

This is what I meant to say:

The job of a scientist is to do science, and while an important part of that should be to communicate their results, they are notorious for writing poorly. I think scientific journalists fill an important role by making science more accessible to people.
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Dec 11 UTC
I will go ahead and say, abge, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding Salinger. "Catcher in the Rye" is a popular and beloved book by the general populace, not just by literature majors. I don't see how it's inaccessible.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
No, no, I agree. I really liked Catcher. I'm saying *if* he had written an inaccessible book *instead* of Catcher.
tboin4 (100 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
I feel like abgemacht is saying how (in my opinion, and perhaps his) pointless it is to over-analyze the book. Of course it's a great book and the general population enjoys reading it, but sometimes I find people just go too far. For example, in my AP Language and Composition class last year, my teacher was talking about the Catcher in the Rye, and we were talking about how Holden wears his cap backwards. A seemingly insignificant fact, but apparently the only player in baseball that wears his cap backwards is the catcher, alluding to his dream and title. It's a nice comparison and is awesome that J.D. Salinger could come up with something like that (if it was on purpose in the first place!), but I find that its not really significant to the story at all. I could still enjoy and understand the book without having made that comparison.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
I think you have a double standard, abgemact:

Physicists, Doctors, Engineers...

All read books...and then they do something with that knowledge.

So do Lit. majors.

"But I think someone who's sole profession was to study and write about other people's music would be pretty worthless."

Which us why the majority of Lit. Professors in universities DON'T just study and write about other people's work...

They generally also write their own things AS WELL AS teach a new generation of students the old texts so that they can live on and be built upon AS WELL AS interpreting those texts...

And that, right there, is another area where we need to make a distinction, because it seems as if "just" studying texts is being treated in a rather high-schoolish way, ie, just read the book and remember the plot and write what you like/dislike about it.

That's not how textual analysis works from ANY critical perspective, be it New Historicist, Marxist, Psychological, Deconstructist, etc.

A "text" in Literary Theory may be viewed as = to an element/molecular structure/chemical formula in scientific fields in the literary purview.

It's a building block, it's something you can mix with other texts and ideas--remembering again that texts are essentially ideas structured together in the same way molecules are atoms structured a certain way, so the same way you can add onto a molecular chain and change the nature of the molecule in cases, you can add new ideas to old ideas in old texts and get an altogether new interpretation...

For example, in an Elizabethan sense...Hamlet can't make up his mind.

But add the ideas and philosophic lens of Sartre's existentialism, and Hamlet's struggle takes on a whole new level of meaning...

"To be or not to be" is elevated from a matter of suicide or action to a questioning of being and existence ITSELF, supported all the more by the "What a piece of work is a man" speech.



"But Obi," it may be asked, "so what? WHY should we care if we can read texts different ways sideways, upside down-- first of all, Shakespeare could never have anticipated Sartre, so it's silly to add Sartre in there at all, and in any case, what GOOD is produced by this at all, anyway?"

One at a time:

-In Literary Theory, when they tell you to write, and to consider texts:

EVERYTHING IS CURRENT AND PRESENT.

Time is relevant, but ALL texts are taken to exist in the present, so it doesn't MATTER if Shakespeare anticipated Sartre or not--we can see that Hamlet's words DO anticipate existentialism quite a bit and, thus, AS LONG AS it is in keeping with the unity of the play, the "Sartre Idea Atom," as it were, can attach itself to the "Hamlet Molecule."

It's also worth mentioning many Literary Theories suppose the "Death of the Author" in the same way the "Death of God" frees up philosophical and scientific thought--

As a text, "Hamlet" exists now free of Shakespeare's control, and so, we can work with it as such...we still must respect who wrote the play and what is meant insofar as the unity must be preserved, but if there's an idea that fits with the unity, REGARDLESS of whether or not Shakespeare would or could have know about it, it's fair game.

-"ALRIGHT," you may say, "but even still, you're dodging--WHAT do we get from all of this?"

We get an active, practicable meaning, which we practice both in teaching and debating ideas as well as writing and expressing new thoughts.

Literary Professors do NOT just sit around with tea and crumpets reading Keats all day long.

They write books.
They debate the ideas represented in both their books and older texts.
They are at the forefront of constructing that Human Consciousness that gives a sense of meaning in a nihilistic world.

"But these ideas are abstract!"

Yes, they often are.

Which is WHY you'll see a lot of Lit. majors also go on to work as, say, Lawyers down the line, or work in politics, applying these ideas in the sphere of human government, or, for those who stick to the Literary Route through and through, the task is to build, preserve, and refine the Canon.

And part of the way you preserve the Canon is reading...
And part of it is debating those ideas...
And part of it is writing new texts and expressing new ideas mixed with the old...
And part of it is teaching a new generation about all of this.



I'll say it again:

Science is necessary for the Human, but Literature and the Humanities are necessary for the Human Being.

And Lit. Professors and Authors play an ACTIVE role, NOT just reading books.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
"I feel like abgemacht is saying how (in my opinion, and perhaps his) pointless it is to over-analyze the book."

And THAT idea, "you're reading too much into it, it's just a story, for goodness' sake, where do you get all these interpretations!" is a misconception about Literature and Textual Theory in General...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
A text exists as a collection of ideas, or, to put it another way:

Idea=Atom
Structure/Format/Syntax/etc.=Bonds that hold the atoms together
Play/Poem/Novel/Text=Molecule of these combined "Idea Atoms"

And, again, just like an element exists regardless of when it was first discovered--that is, with the exception of man-made elements, we don't say Carbon didn't "exist" as an element before it was discovered, and so it has no business in scientific matters concerning a time before its discovery--a Text exists regardless of time.

It is a collection of ideas, and generally IS meant to be interpreted and read...and you can approach that many ways, but even if it weren't meant to be read (for example, Kafka told a friend to burn all his stories before he died, which obviously the friend, thankfully, did not) the ideas are still THERE--



As long as the ideas are there, they can and should be analyzed, the same way that elements don't just exist for our benefit, but if you as men of science can find a way to manipulate and use them for your ends, you should, and do.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
@obi

Perhaps, my problem isn't with the study of literature, but *how* it is studied. For instance, can you defend "close readings"? Is that something that is actually used "in the field"?
semck83 (229 D(B))
03 Dec 11 UTC
Obi, I'm curious about this claim that literature professors write their own literature. My distinct impression was that they kind of suck as authors most of the time, and that few (though not none) of the writers that stand out and have stood the test of time were actually literature professors.
Tell me I'm wrong.
(Still planning that post later.... busy evening).
semck83 (229 D(B))
03 Dec 11 UTC
(By way of example, I did a quick scan, and of the 20 writers who won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction between 1990 and 2009 inclusive, only 5 have Ph.D.'s, not all in literature. Admittedly, this prize is probably only at best a rough proxy for writing quality, but it does suggest a possible disconnect, such as abge has mentioned, between writing and academically studying literature. Not that I take the hard line abge does.).
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
@abgemacht:

Granted *I* don't like close readings, because again, *I* am an Intertextualist...so I'm probably biased here, as I'd say "No, close reading and JUST close reading in an Intratextual way is NOT all that helpful," but that may also be the bias of my slant, so you might want to get an Intratextualists' position first...

But just me?

I'll leave it at this:

Perhaps there is some value in close readings and just close, Intratextual readings, but of there is, it's either in isolation and often trivial except in that particular idea's case, or else it's limited and Intertextual theories, with a unified concept of inter-linking texts that influence one another, is far more useful and leads to more active interpretation...and work, correspondingly.

@semck83:

A short list of English/Philosophy professors that were "also" authors:

Bertrand Russell
Joyce Carol Oates
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Plato
Aristotle
Epicurus
Harold Bloom
Martin Heidegger
Jacques Derrida
D.H. Lawrence (for a while, a teacher, at least)

Probably something that is noticed quickly...

A lot more philosophers/critics than fiction authors.

Which is because a lot more theoretical work is done by professors, and when they do write...well, you have less time when you have all those papers to grade, I suppose.

But in all fairness, there ARE plenty of authors--the Bronte sisters and T.S. Eliot among them--who were either offered positions and turned them down because they already HAD that level of prestige from previous collegiate-literary accomplishments as well as real world work, or took the position but either left quickly or aren't really "remembered" all that much for teaching there.



(And for the record:

I hope to buck that "theory" of professors as poor fiction writers someday!) :)
semck83 (229 D(B))
03 Dec 11 UTC
@obi, OK, thanks. I didn't realize you were including non-fiction writings. There, of course I would agree that professors can produce some very memorable and important works, especially in the field of philosophy.
You could have added, at least, CS Lewis, Norman Maclean, and... somebody whose name I can't remember. :-P
I just took issue with the general trend I inferred you to speak of, but it seems I misinferred.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
"Admittedly, this prize is probably only at best a rough proxy for writing quality, but it does suggest a possible disconnect, such as abge has mentioned, between writing and academically studying literature."

I'd assume there's also a difference between teaching Astronomy classes and studying astronomical phenomena and actually and concretely being credited with engineering a shuttle (or whatever the next thing will be called) run to Mars.

Theory and Practice are both needed...both get recognized, I guess...

T.S. Eliot made a splash as both, we just "hear" about him as a poet primarily due to the prominence and access f poetry in comparison to theory.

But "The Waste Land" and "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is important...but so are Eliot's concepts of the Objective Correlative and his pioneering work in the New Criticism movement.
semck83 (229 D(B))
03 Dec 11 UTC
@obiwan, Definitely I agree there have been some major names who excelled at both. I was again referring to trends, etc. Even Poe comes to mind as somebody as well regarded for his criticism as for his writing.
I don't at all agree with your analogy to Astronomy / shuttle building, though. Astronomers don't study shuttles. They study space, and they don't mostly do it so shuttles can be built. they do it to understand space. That is a field where the teaching and practice are not separated as in literature.
Technology, meanwhile, just doesn't really have a parallel in literature, or if it does, it would be like Hollywood making a blockbuster film from a book.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
touche ;)
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
"Obi, I'm curious about this claim that literature professors write their own literature. My distinct impression was that they kind of suck as authors most of the time, and that few (though not none) of the writers that stand out and have stood the test of time were actually literature professors."

This has been my feeling as well...

"Granted *I* don't like close readings, because again, *I* am an Intertextualist..."

Well, I'll take what I can get, I suppose : )

"A short list of English/Philosophy professors that were "also" authors:"

English/Philosophy professors are not Lit professors, so I don't understand how this is relevant.

"I didn't realize you were including non-fiction writings. "

Since when did Lit include non-fiction? I think that's really stretching the definition...

"I'd assume there's also a difference between teaching Astronomy classes and studying astronomical phenomena and actually and concretely being credited with engineering a shuttle (or whatever the next thing will be called) run to Mars."

First, astronomers study space, engineers build shuttles. There's a difference.

Second, it depends on the type of university you attend. If it's more research focused, then the professors probably do research and contribute new work. If it's teaching focused, then the professors probably teach and contribute to new students' understanding. Either way, they are contributing to society. I still fail to see how teaching studying or teaching Lit would be a full-time occupation.

obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
"English/Philosophy professors are not Lit professors, so I don't understand how this is relevant."

...How?

My English professors are my Lit. professors...what's the distinction being drawn here?

"Since when did Lit include non-fiction? I think that's really stretching the definition..."

I'm using Lit." for texts written concerning the Humanities (as opposed to the Sciences) so I count the non-fiction...but I'd concede that's an extended definition and beyond the usual boundaries of the term.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
Also00when we restart the Inter-Disciplinary Invitational, you have to join! :)
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
There can be cross-over, but you can usually tell the difference.

For instance, a lot of engineers may do serious math/science or vice versa, but depending on their goals/methods you can usually tell which one they're more like.

Everywhere I've seen, English and Lit are two separate departments. Is that not the case with you?

"I'm using Lit." for texts written concerning the Humanities"

Please don't. Unless I'm mistaken, the study of "Literature" is almost universally understood to mean works of fiction. Obviously, you can have "literature" (referring to generic writing) in any field. But, that's not what we're discussing here. If we were to talk about non-fiction works, my argument would be much different.

fulhamish (4134 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
Just a question for you all is science something which strives for objectivity and art (generic) something which embraces subjectivity? I make no value judgements on this because, given the human condition, both are equally valid.

My difficulty comes where basically subjective subjects and their practitioners desperately cling to the science tag in the rather sad and, in my view, needless hope that this gives them some extra validity.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
"My difficulty comes where basically subjective subjects and their practitioners desperately cling to the science tag in the rather sad and, in my view, needless hope that this gives them some extra validity."

I could not agree with this more. Like Social Science instead of Social Studies or Library Science instead of Library Studies.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
...

Literature is NOT on the same plane as Library studies.

And I don't think Literature NEEDS any extra "validity"...

I again put it to you--

Without Literature and the Humanities, man is but an animal.

An intelligent animal, yes, but still an animal...

It's as much our ability to ask "To be or not to be" and what matters in life, ie, the things contained in Literature, as it is our ability to solve complex differential equations that make us human beings.

Take away Literature, and I'd ask, to use a Sci-fi example...

How would humanity be different from the Borg, say, just a purely-scientific, information-gathering, totally-"practical" race?



Assuming no one here WANTS a Borg-like existence...I think the "validity" of Literature in our lives is apparent enough, we don't need that extra boost (though I WILL add that I think it's a touch of ignorance to argue that a subjective subject can't have a scientific, logical process of theory and interpretation and organization to it...is it THAT outlandish to believe Literature has rules?)
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Dec 11 UTC
"Without Literature and the Humanities, man is but an animal."

How can you possibly defend this position?

"I think the "validity" of Literature in our lives is apparent enough"

You seem to not be grasping the argument at hand (on purpose, perhaps?). No one is criticizing literature. My confusion is in regards to people who's occupation is to study literature. Do you not see the difference?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
""Without Literature and the Humanities, man is but an animal."

How can you possibly defend this position?"

The way I have been:

Take away Literature and the Humanities--music, theatre, philosophy--and what sort of creature are you left with?

At BEST, again, I'd say a sort of fact-gathering Borg-like excuse for a human...and a meaningless creature that would be, as, again, in a God-less universe, if man doesn't create his own sense of meaning, he lacks it.

What sort of existence do you see a Literature+Humanities-less creature having?

Because if all that's "relevant" and "valid" are facts and figures, I don't see how much different a human being becomes from a computer...again, a Borg.

"Literature is irrelevant...creativity is irrelevant...free will is irrelevant...thought is irrelevant..."

A purely Scientific Species doesn't seem very worthwhile or inspired...which is not to say Science should't be pursued 100%--

Just that it needs the Humanities to make us, well, HUMAN and not Borg.

Science is a means to an end, not the end itself.

"My confusion is in regards to people who's occupation is to study literature. Do you not see the difference?"

I see the difference, and have answered it:

1. In the first place, literature is a collection of ideas, so at WORST Literaturists would be debating and studying ideas their entire life, and teaching them to those who would put them into practice...and these ideas ARE put into practice, and they help to shape our world, so even the worst-case scenario leads to a good we need, ie, the shared history and continuation of thought.

2. Those who teach this--and you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't either write OR teach and merely studies and gives no output at all--pass on the history of ideas and the people behind it, and allow for a sense of shared culture and immortality

3. There ARE those who write and study as well.



What occupation are you referring to that's JUST studying?

Because professors teach, and journalists and writers write...so who is it that's just reading and not either teaching ideas to others or else writing literature or non-fiction theory and philosophy, since you seem fine with that as well...

So who are you referring to? What group of people?

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75 replies
Putin33 (111 D)
01 Dec 11 UTC
The Federal Reserve Balance Sheet
Can someone explain the difference between Quantitative Easing & Credit Easing? I'm not getting it. I get that QE is pumping money into circulation by buying large numbers of treasury bonds, but how is the process different with this "credit easing"? It's still expanding the balance sheet, is it not?
55 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
03 Dec 11 UTC
Why Not?
An idea of a way to retool replacements.
17 replies
Open
P-man (494 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
So I think I found a bug...
either that or I don't know the rules correctly...
gameID=73804
In Autumn 1908 I moved Pie-Ven via convoy. The convoy failed, yet the army still moved. Should this have happened?
20 replies
Open
Moderator (100 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
Test
Please feel free to disregard.

abge
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Open
Catsglove (199 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
breaking suport
Galacia suported Ukrain into Warsaw, while Warsaw attacked Galacia, it is my understanding that this should have prevented ukrain taking warsaw.but warsaw was taken as suport should have been broken.
1 reply
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
Ghostratings...
Anyone have any updates about how soon we'll be able to see the new rankings? Thanks.
3 replies
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Mujus (1495 D(B))
02 Dec 11 UTC
Statesmen or Robbers?
I'd never heard of this reporter until today and was shocked by the video. Apparently he's a regular for the BBC and other British media. What does everyone think about the truth of this information??
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8187301869971500776
15 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
01 Dec 11 UTC
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Thoughts? A modern Wonder or a waste of time and money?

http://longnow.org/clock/
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jmeyersd (4240 D)
03 Dec 11 UTC
50CC-005-2 EOG
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Haitian Revolution...
I've got a seminar on the Haitian revolution due next week. Anyone know anything about it?
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Open
Jacob (2466 D)
01 Dec 11 UTC
The Second-Largest Power
Many people have observed that the largest power becomes a target for alliances to take down. This makes the second-largest power a desirable position to hold as it often can become the winning power. Builds can be withheld or centers not taken in order to achieve this position. Discuss below.
17 replies
Open
AzygousWolf (100 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
is the enemy of my enemies enemy, my friend or my enemy...
What things do you to keep track of whats going on in a game, from a diplomacy perspective... to work out the likelihood someone is going to "stab" (a phrase I am becoming quickly accustom with) you a few turns in advance.

is it wise to have a separate word doc open to keep track of whats going on with each country?
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fulhamish (4134 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
Academic Publishing Scam
George Monibot has this to say: http://www.monbiot.com/2011/08/29/the-lairds-of-learning/. I thoroughly agree with him.
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
02 Dec 11 UTC
Hi hi hi
How are you guys. What is happening blah blah blah

What is TC doing he is posting about smoking pot or someshit i dunno. Did anyone get banned etc. Can I have mod back now k thx
4 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Dec 11 UTC
Pot makes driving safer
Here is a research article that is intriguing.
Medical Marijuana Laws, Traffic Fatalities, and Alcohol Consumption
by D. Mark Anderson, Daniel I. Rees (November 2011)
22 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
02 Dec 11 UTC
Favorite Whiskies
As suggested in the beer thread, post your whiskey recommendations here.
20 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
30 Nov 11 UTC
Favorite Beers
Post beer recommendations: national brands, regional craft beers, etc.
55 replies
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mr.crispy (0 DX)
01 Dec 11 UTC
Diplochatness
So I clicked my name today and noticed I talk a decent amount in diplomacy games but never thought I spoke this much. How many chat messages do YOU have under your belt?

Game messages: 4112
48 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
30 Nov 11 UTC
Job Creation
If you owned a company and someone said they would cut your costs to hire an employ for the next six months, but after that they would raise the costs tremendously why would you hire anyone based on a six month cut? This is exactly President Obama's payroll tax reduction plan.
18 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
02 Dec 11 UTC
The Gobbledydook Challenge V2
Hm I do not have any more active games.
Seeing there is a lack of quality games open...here goes.

Post here to indicate interest!
0 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
01 Dec 11 UTC
Anyone else notice?
http://webdiplomacy.net/rules.php
=)
29 replies
Open
Octavious (2701 D)
01 Dec 11 UTC
The UK Public Sector Strikes
Yesterday, so we are told, 2 million UK public sector workers sacrificed a day's pay and caused the rest of us great inconvenience in order to make a point. But I can't help feel they're missing a trick...
34 replies
Open
thatonekid (0 DX)
30 Nov 11 UTC
Is this going to get me in Trouble?
My brother(The Man Who Can't Be Moved) without my knowing, decided to joing some daily games that I was in without telling me, 2 of which I believe are Anonymous, this will not compromise how I play the game but it is certainly aggrivating that I could get banned when uses my Laptop, is there anyway I can avoid being under scrutany for this or should I simply avoid it in the future?
14 replies
Open
yebellz (729 D(G))
01 Dec 11 UTC
test thread
Blah
8 replies
Open
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