@Putin....Again...you FUCKING MORON....in the "wild west"....as the US expanded westward, it was pretty much a lawless land, in that the Federal government was primarily absent. And yet....OH MY GOD.....for the purtposes of SELF-SURVIVAL....people managed to work our trades an survive.

That being said....it was also wise to have a gun on hand, because "bullies"...you know, thieves, etc....were prevelant (wjhy?? Because humans are greedy rotten beings...DUYH!!)

Putin....once again....you display your UTTER LACK of understanding of humanity. Go bury your head in another useless fucking book on communism or whatever the hell you believe in. Let the rest of us have a real discussion about honest human behavior. Your are too much of a dick....or too shunned by humanity...to know who REAL peple behave.

Go the fuck away, Putin.

"the ONLY way your OWN PROFESSED desired form of government has ever existed was that a VERY FEW with guns was able to persuade the ignorant masses that they had best not rebel...under threat of violence."

Evidently you never learned about the Russian civil war.

"relaize that LIFE is more than just your theorietical bullshit and philosophy that you thrive on. Your philosophy has NOTHING TO DO WITH REALIty, YOU STUPID ASSHOLE."

You're the one dealing in 'theories', Mr. Tourettes, not me. The 'theory' that capitalism can exist just fine without the state is pure delusion.

"grow the fuck up."

Learn some new phrases, you're boring.

Putin...you fucking moron....are you trying to suggest the the Russian Civil War was an anarchist movement????

How stupid are you, really?


GROW THE FUCK UP.

@Putin....EARLY America was largely WITHOUT government involvement. The Feds pretty much restricted themselves to FOREIGN affairs....and....with SELF-INDULGENCE all the rage....men EXCELLED! The United States, under FREE Capitalism (as opposed to the government-restricted-psuedo-NON-Capitalism of today...) people thrived, and created and excelled and invented and....and in VERY SHORT ORDER the United States...because of the astronomical growth in wealth and power that FREE CAPITALISM provided...came to all but rule the world

That you believe otherwise is just a testimony to how utterly fucking stupid you are, Putin. Yo ustupid jackass.

GROW THE FUCK UP.

Hey Putin....

GROW THE FUCK UP! You stupid ignorant fuck.

It's not Tourettes.....it is just me SPEAKING THE TRUTH ABOUT AN ASSHOLE. \

ASSHOLE. yOU FUCKING dick.

What? No. Try less cussing and more coherent writing. When you said "my own professed desired form of government" I assumed you meant socialist government. A war is not a "movement", obviously. Although anarchists did fight in the Russian civil war, on the side of the whites. The so-called Makhnoites.

"@Putin....EARLY America was largely WITHOUT government involvement"

Try to stay on topic. We're not talking about limited government, we're talking about no government. The government still very much defended property rights and used the guns of the state to do that. And US capitalism was helped enormously by government landgrants for the railroads and other industries. Thanks.

pUTIN.....if yo profes to believe neither in anarchism or capaitalism....and yet NOBODY believes in socialism anymore (because it is an ABJECT FAILURE, you stupid DUMBASS...) THEN go the fuck away. Seriously, Putin, NOBODY on this sight thinks your ideas are worth shit.

Yeah...I may be extremely vocal about my thoughts and use....OH MY GOD!!!!!.....swear words in my posts....(which I am SURE offends your virgin eyes....)....But at least people agree with me on occassion.

YOU, Putin, are a fucking moronic island unto himself. You are a lonely, isolated bitch. You are that homely fat chick leaning against the wall at the high school dance that nobody even gives a shit about enough to ask for one dance. You are a the dill weed that people kick sand at. You are the dessicated piece of cat shit we fluch down the toilet. You are one hairy piece of rotten meat that got wrapped up and shoved wayyyy in to the back of the fridge...but was sealed well enough that when we unwrap it, it smell like something fucking DIED in the kitchen. You are all forms of idiotic, moronic, WRONG-thinking and pretty much NOBODY but YOU and the possibly-still-living-but-I-doubt-it Castro believes.

GROW THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID DOUCHEBAG. Nobody likes you or BELIEVES ANY OF THE SHIT YOU SAY.

Ok krellin I am not responding to all your crap, but you brought up one valid point, what if you dont believe that all humans are basically decent? Personally I dont think that at all, and I agree that humans will always rape steal kill etc.
But that sort of begs the question... if you think all humans are inherently flawed, why in the fuck would you want to put one in charge of you?!
esp. since someone said I have no problem with the government.... until the politicians corrupt it.
show me a government that wasnt corrupted, that trampled on the rights of no one, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.

also, I really had to try very hard to take you even remotely seriously. I sense rationality in you somewhere, but its certainly harder to believe in when you spam 4 straight posts chock full of expletives to call someone a stupid fucking faggot asshole dick.... are you twelve or something? really?
Ha its funny how the people most ready to believe in the un-kindness of others tend to be assholes.

And the kicker is THIS, you stupid asshole: You live and WILLINGLY participate in American Capitalism. If it is SO offensive to you...then why do you do it????? WHY do you work and adccept a paycheck, you fucking hypocrite? Because for every paycheck that you take, someone else of equal human worth is getting less than you? So do you willingly donate a vast majority of your paycheck to the less-"priveledeged?"" Or are you EXACTLY the fucking "socialist" hypocrite that I KNOW YOU ARE.


So shut the fuck up, bitch.

"""pUTIN.....if yo profes to believe neither in anarchism or capaitalism....and yet NOBODY believes in socialism anymore (because it is an ABJECT FAILURE, you stupid DUMBASS...) THEN go the fuck away. Seriously, Putin, NOBODY on this sight thinks your ideas are worth shit.

Yeah...I may be extremely vocal about my thoughts and use....OH MY GOD!!!!!.....swear words in my posts....(which I am SURE offends your virgin eyes....)....But at least people agree with me on occassion.

YOU, Putin, are a fucking moronic island unto himself. You are a lonely, isolated bitch. You are that homely fat chick leaning against the wall at the high school dance that nobody even gives a shit about enough to ask for one dance. You are a the dill weed that people kick sand at. You are the dessicated piece of cat shit we fluch down the toilet. You are one hairy piece of rotten meat that got wrapped up and shoved wayyyy in to the back of the fridge...but was sealed well enough that when we unwrap it, it smell like something fucking DIED in the kitchen. You are all forms of idiotic, moronic, WRONG-thinking and pretty much NOBODY but YOU and the possibly-still-living-but-I-doubt-it Castro believes.

GROW THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID DOUCHEBAG. Nobody likes you or BELIEVES ANY OF THE SHIT YOU SAY. """"

really dude?
really?

whatever views putin has, at least he (generally) expresses them coherently and with passion. You on the other hand... your spelling errors jar me, your cursing is annoying and unesscessary, and everything you said about him are most likely things you yourself are insecure about. Like being lonlely and uncared for, for instance (perhaps why you feel the need to put others down, to bring yourself up. On the internet of course, where no one can see how sad you really are)

@PUTIN LIVE your beliefs....or shtu the fuck up about them....you know...when *I* was suffereing financially, despitemy skills, I never recieved an message from Putin offereing to help me out. I never received a PayPal donation from Putin who thoght that....as a human...I was worthy of equality to him.

No....Put is NOTHING AT ALL BUT A HYPOCRITE. He does NOT believe in equality. he does NOT believe in socialism AT ALL....or else he would be offering up his free wealth, his EXCESS wealth to those that need it....each according to their need...and there are many here that have needs they can not meet as they try to improvie themselves.

Soi Putin is the BIGGEST HYPOCRITE of hypocrites.

So Putin...Go the fuck away. you stupid dick.

"-"priveledeged?"" "

ROFL.

How did you reproduce?

"or else he would be offering up his free wealth, his EXCESS wealth to those that need it....each according to their need...and there are many here that have needs they can not meet as they try to improvie themselves. "

It's clear you have no idea what socialism is, or anything else for that matter. Probably went to a private school. No standards I tell you.

@sic...so what. I'd rather have a better idea with spelling errors than love a jackass who thrives on hipocrisy.

Of course, you moronic child of the public education system....I'm surpirsed that any of you can point out spelling errors anyway.

@Putin...I know what socialism is. The question is....are you man enought o ADMIT what socialism is....and DEMONSTRATE IT in your life.

I suppose you support the "occupy" movement. So...what have YOU DONE to spread YOUR WEALTH to those less fortunate??? Becuas I have a lot of debt right now from my stint in unemployment. So why don't you man the fuck up and help a brother out? Or are you too much of a fucking hypocrite? Or is your version of socialism "All animals are equal....but some are more equal than others?????"

Jackass hypocrite.

Socialism has nothing to do with charity or income equalization. It's aim is public control of the means of production. You're clueless.

"@sic...so what. I'd rather have a better idea with spelling errors than love a jackass who thrives on hipocrisy. "

ok go. whats your idea? I have only seen sophomoric insults, no actual substance. maybe you really do have a better idea, but if so you are doing a piss poor job of enticing people to listen.
hypocrisy by the way.

sigh....

another thread derailed by loud assholes who have no idea what they are even talking about. This forum has really fell a long way.

@Sicarius - props for the post, it managed to draw me into the forums for the first time when it popped up on my homepage. There's a lot of miscomprehension here about what the argument is, but here's a couple of thoughts:

- The argument isn't so much that we are all secretly flag waving anarchists. It's that the ideas that many of us hold are *shared* with, and can be derived from anarchist ideas.

- On the person who pushes in line, breaks the rules, etc. Just because you have an organisation/society which is structured completely horizontally does not mean you can't a) come up with rules and b) impose conditions on people who break said rules. The difference is that rather than locking someone up, you just kick them out of your organisation. Remember, anarchy means 'without-rulers', not 'without-rules'.

- Property (shared or personal) can exist without the state. Resistance and violence may be implicit in maintaining said property, but there no good reason to assume that the state is the only thing capable of enforcing property rights.

- Anarchism isn't monolithic; consensus decision making, violence, democracy etc are all entirely debatable within anarchism. Focus on the basic tenets: people *in general* are capable of ruling themselves, even moreso in association with others, without being subjected to arbitrary power from the top, and there a near-infinite number of real world examples to demonstrate this.

"Seriously, Putin, NOBODY on this sight thinks your ideas are worth shit."

This is an incorrect statement. On a large number of issues I'm proud to say that I share the same position as Putin, and respect and admire the ideas there.

Second Putin did support you when you were down. The only difference is he did it in the way a socialist aught to. He payed his taxes to the government so you could use welfare if need be. To help you and others out. It's pointless to single a single individual out for aid, when money could be more effectively used if it were put into useful projects.

Private property is not the same as personal or shared property. It is private property which cannot exist without the state. There is a great reason to assume that the state is the only thing capable of enforcing property rights, because property rights are the invention of the state.

And what are the infinite-number of real world examples of anarchist societies.

"The difference is that rather than locking someone up, you just kick them out of your organisation. Remember, anarchy means 'without-rulers', not 'without-rules'."

Anarchists had no problem locking people up. Not only locking people up but also used what's called psychotechnic torture.

...Hmm. Putin do I also have my definition of socialism wrong.

I had assumed that Socialism, referred to both the economic system, and the socio-political system

To post on topic. I find this definition of Anarchist to be highly offensive. It suggests that anyone who believes that humanity is fundamentally good must be an anarchist.

While I'm not sure I believe it anymore, I certainly used to think humanity was good at the heart of things, but also that socialism was the way to go, because it involved organization, which is far more effective then the act of individual persons.

Sure an anarchist could put together a voluntary road building committee. However by having roles that are at least partially structured, assures things get done, and important but unpleasant jobs don't fall to the wayside.

@Putin: Let me clarify. There is no *particular* reason why individual OR collective ownership of the means of production (which is apparently what we care about) can only be enforced by the state. It only take a simple thought experiment (say, me and my buddies 'own' a plantation in Somalia, and we work together to defend it using our personal arsenal - hey presto, our property rights have been maintained) to see why this is the case.

"Anarchists had no problem locking people up..."

Maybe so, and I condemn that generally. Anarchists don't tend to impose rigid ideological standards on each other, and all else being equal there isn't much stopping someone who is a sadistic or murderous asshole calling himself an anarchist. We don't hand out membership cards. The point is that anarchism is not necessarily violent or repressive, and even if it is *incidentally* it is far less so *in general* than most other ideologies are those things *in general*.

Yes socialism means publicly administered economy (economic system) and the dictatorship of the proletariat (socio-political).

There are some socialists who do not believe the DoP is necessary, that the capitalists will voluntarily quit being the ruling class and once out of power, won't violently try to retake power even in the face of the elimination of private property. That's "democratic" socialism (as contrasted with revolutionary socialism).

Another closely aligned ideology is social democracy, which is often confused with socialism. Essentially social democrats want to preserve the capitalist system but employ greater measures of wealth leveling through taxation and social services, to mitigate the negative effects of capitalism. They might even advocate public ownership of some enterprises, but the market economy still prevails.

The behaviours listed in the OP can be justifably described as anarchist behaviours. Societies: Zapatistas, civil war-era Spain?

"We don't hand out membership cards. The point is that anarchism is not necessarily violent or repressive, and even if it is *incidentally* it is far less so *in general* than most other ideologies are those things *in general*."

That's because anarchists have never successfully been in power. It's always easy to glorify movements that have not been achieved much, if anything. There's nothing more heroic in people's eyes than failed attempts at taking power. It has nothing to do with the moral purity of your ideology.

"It only take a simple thought experiment (say, me and my buddies 'own' a plantation in Somalia, and we work together to defend it using our personal arsenal - hey presto, our property rights have been maintained) to see why this is the case."

But property is more than just land. Private property involves transactions, contracts, buying, selling, and profit-making. This can only be enforced by some kind of legal authority, which means a state. Sure you can try to employ gangsters to do it instead, but then that's a difference without a distinction. You're still utilizing authority and force, which is what anarchists claim to oppose.