"it isn't their country pal! The Union is a democracy and the people of Northern Ireland wish to be British, bless them. "

Only four counties had unionist majorities at the time of partition. You took Tyrone & Fermanagh against the 'democratic' will of the majority, and there are nine counties in Ulster so you claim of 'Ulster' is absolute bunk. If the majority were allowed to rule there would have been no partition.

Your "democracy" gerrymandered the electoral districts to such an extent after partition that even majority Republican counties had majority Unionist representatives.

WWII is caused by National Socialist Germans sadly, WWI is caused by Serbia, don't confuse the two. Serbia is not the victim, that award goes to France and Austria.

Addition to my prior post 'Caused by National Socialist Germans and Stalin's Russians.' The invasion of Poland was a dual invasion.

@Dejan0707, Da ne zbunjujete grehe Srba prošlosti, sa gresima Srba današnjice. (I don't speak Serbian, but my apartment neighbor is from Serbia. We watch football together. I got this from him just now, so excuse me if it is wrong.)

Serbia never had anything to do with organization that killed Austrian archduke Ferdinand, Austria used this assassination to give ultimatum that was clearly out of any logic and could not be accepted by any country in the world in given cuircumstance. Austria wanted supremacy and expansion into south-eastern Europe so their motives were expansion.

WWII was cause by National Socialist Germans? I thought they were legitimate government so you could just admit that Germany caused WWII. Obviously you are speaking from position very close to German nationalism. I am speaking objectively.

I am sure that there is many more people with college education (and higher level of education too) just like 160 IQ persons here so you are not the only one.

"Putin33, they denied that the assassin was to be tried in an Austrian court. Do you know how that sounds? Now a days, if we wanted a terrorist to be tried in an American court, nobody would complain."

That's an absolute lie. Serbia said right in the beginning of the reply that they would "hand over for trial any Serbian suject...of whose complicity in the crime of Sarajevo proofs are forthcoming"

The only demand they did not comply with was the idea that Serbian inquiries into the crime would be supervised by A-H agents as it violated the constitution. Everything else was accepted, even AH collaboration on the suppression of anti-AH activity within Serbia's territory.

The Austro-German-Bulgarian war of aggression vs Serbia cost it 1/2 its male population and 1/3 its overall population. Pretty close to a genocide. There is ample documentation showing that Austria and Germany were planning for a war of aggression and knew what the consequences would be. Austria feared the rising power of Serbia after its victories in the Balkan wars against Turkey and the traitorous Bulgarians. But Serbia was itself exhausted from these wars and in no position to fight. Nonetheless they fought heroically but never get credit for it.

Serbia is the most abused ally of European freedom in the history of Europe. They've always been on the right side of history, unlike its neighbors.

SERBIA HAD ALREADY AGREED TO BE ANNEXED BY AUSTRIA-HUNGARY! HOW DOES THIS EQUATE TO 'THE RISING POWER'!

Russia didn't "invade" Poland. That territory was Ukrainian & Belarussian and is still Ukrainian and Belarussian today. Poland seized that area in the 1920s during their invasion of Russia. The Soviets liberated Polish concentration camps, like Bereza Kartuska, from the Sanacja.

Dejan0707, National Socialists were a political group on which my family never has associated. Did they serve in the Wehrmacht? Yes. Were they National Socialists? No. Were the Higher Ups National Socialists? Yes. Should the sins of few extend to become the sins of many? No. And I realize that the Black Hand was formed in a neighboring country, but the assassins themselves were Serbian College students with too much nationalism to let their country be annexed peacefully or un-peacefully (public opinion was that many Serbians supported the Austrian Monarchy's annexation as it would give their country more power). Like if I really want to get into it WWI was not caused by Serbia, but by Black Hand Serbians. I just think associating the Black Hand to it would go over most of the forums trolls heads.

"SERBIA HAD ALREADY AGREED TO BE ANNEXED BY AUSTRIA-HUNGARY! HOW DOES THIS EQUATE TO 'THE RISING POWER'!"

What are you talking about?

Putun33, that was the stupidest comment I have ever heard.

"Austria feared the rising powers of Serbia"

Serbia had been peacefully annexed by Austria before the war.

If you are trying to prove us that Germany is the best nation in the world and that everyone should want to be annexed to it and become Germans, you are doing a poor job. Recreating the forth Reich on the webdiplomacy forum is not so thrilling idea to the most of the people here. I would gladly speak about Bavarian Alps, beer, Bayern Munich of October fest, and really dont think any nationalistic empires belong in here.

"Serbia had been peacefully annexed by Austria before the war."

You mean Bosnia and Herzegovina? That was an Austro-Ottoman protectorate prior to 1908, after which it was illegally annexed, leading Austria to harm relations with virtually everybody.

Dejan, I in no way said that everyone in the world should be annexed by Germany (though I do think East Prussia should probably be returned), I think our borders are rather fine. I am saying that (originally) England is a lying cheating nation that takes what it wants.

Every post WW2 U.S. president was/is a war criminal. Stop defending those greedy genocidal bitches.

@marti the bruce
"Fuck the IRA! those fucking bastards weren't a bunch of saints, heroically standing up to defend the poor catholics from an oppressive invading army. Northern Ireland was, is and will be British soil. The people of northern ireland are British."

Never said they were saints, but they were standing up for catholics. I'll accept your claim that Northern Ireland is currently British soil, but within the next 15 years it is very likely it will again be part of Ireland. People aren't British because the country that rules over them is Britain. There are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish. Hell, even many protestants consider themselves Irish before British.

"The IRA killed innocent civilians not only in Ulster, but also in England, in Scotland and on the continent. They even killed a couple of Australian tourists in Holland. In which world is this commendable?
Oh, i know, in goddamned Ireland. Fuck the Irish, and fuck the IRA!"

If you would like to provide dates and examples that would be great. Also, were those the Provisional IRA as those are the men I am defending. You can hate on the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA all you want. By the way, Northern Ireland isn't Ulster. There's 3 counties in Ulster that are part of the Republic of Ireland.

"it isn't their country pal! The Union is a democracy and the people of Northern Ireland wish to be British, bless them"

Just because it is now a democracy doesn't mean the Union was founded on decent principles. During the Union the British committed what amounted to genocide on a similar scale to the Holocaust based on the numbers of Irish that were killed or forced to leave Ireland. At the beginning of the famine there were 8 million Irish in Ireland. Following the famine, well over 1 million had died, and the country still has not returned to 8 million people (that includes the entire island). Also, the gerrymandered North of Ireland has a slim majority of people that want to be British. In counties like Derry, the majority of the population wishes to be part of the Republic of Ireland.

"oh i am not defending the loyalist paramilitaries, nor the RUC. and pat was right in his history of the early years of the Troubles. But attacking the British army for being deployed to the North is just bollocks. The IRA's stated aim was to make Ulster ungovernable, the army's aim was to stop the violence. Calling the army an invading or occupying force is also just bullshit, Ulster is part of the UK. "

Statements like that make you sound ignorant. As stated before, ULSTER is not part of the UK. Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan are part of the Republic of Ireland. The British army were not an occupying force until Bloody Sunday. When an armed militia shoots 26 unarmed civilians, (5 of them in the back!) it loses all credibility. Though the paramilitary groups, especially the loyalist groups whos main aim was to kill Catholic civilians, committed some terrible acts, I believe the actions by the British army on that day were the worst throughout the entire period of the Troubles.

In conclusion, you can say fuck the Irish and fuck the IRA, but it just makes you sound ignorant, and the facts really don't back you up all that well. I could have thrown in a few curses myself, but I don't need to spice my speech up- history is on my side.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. What reality are you living in?

IRA is an outdated cause (it would have been useful in the 1200s)

All white people are an occupying force over North America.

@askari
When did I say it wasn't?

@Fasces
Perhaps, but the 1998 agreement never would have been a reality without the IRA

@patizcool - every terrorist group will claim that progress was only made because they stood up and killed some innocents but unless you have some kind of time machine that can explore alternate realities there is no way of proving such things. I would also remind you that the Welsh were also much oppressed by the English yet still enjoy an assembly equal in stature to the Stormont Assembly without a drop of blood being spilt. Likewise the Scots have more powers in their devolved government and that was acheived without a terrorist campaign.

I know this isn't a good analogy but would you recommend 16-17 year olds starting a terrorism campaign in order to get the vote and to stand up against their discrimination?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. History decicdes who was right and who was wrong and the winners *always* write history.

@ mapleleaf: "Every post WW2 U.S. president was/is a war criminal. Stop defending those greedy genocidal bitches."

The most intelligent comment so far made in this thread.

Now what did Carter do?

@Maniac
Unless you go back to the 1600's, before the Ulster plantation, you can not compare Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. The Stormont Assembly did not represent Northern Ireland as the Welsh's assembly did represent the Welsh. The Stormont Assembly represented slightly over 50% of the population in Northern Ireland. Let me target the perpetrators of the discrimination in Northern Ireland. It was not the British, it was the Unionists. Bloody Sunday was terrible and the responsibility for the massacre falls squarely on the shoulders of the British army, but the Unionists created the situation that led to the renewed campaign of the IRA.

Also, let me reiterate that the actions which the IRA undertook should not be condoned. I do not approve of the killing of Englishmen or Unionists. I am merely defending the fact that the IRA did have some justification for doing so based on the discrimination against Catholics, the lack of representation in their government and police force, and the tragedy of Bloody Sunday, when 13 innocent civilians were gunned down by the British army.

"the winners *always* write history."

Seems like Palestinian upporters have been writing a hell of alot of history lately to back up that cliche

Go Serbia! I've always liked them, although I'm part Serbian. A lot of good arguments here, although I wonder where everyone is getting their statistics and facts...