@abgemacht: On the one hand I agree with you. Address people as they wish to be addressed.

On the other hand, your question also can translate to: if someone wants to be oppressed, why is that your concern?

That said, choice of titles is a small issue in the wider context -- so if someone wishes to be called by a certain title then of course you would want to respect their wish, if you want good, working relations with that person. That was my point -- you will of course meet people in life who want and choose to be addressed by such antiquated, mildly-oppressive terms, it doesn't necessarily mean that others are wrong for not doing so.

But, until you know how people want to be styled (which steephie doesn't in this case), I'd suggest always opting on default to the most polite and egalitarian forms of reference.

Are you talking to me Yoyo? Because hah, no. But this isn't the same thing.

Oh. She's an imbecile for all sorts of other reasons, that's just one small example. If it was just the name-styling issue and she was a sane reasonable person in every other regard of course she wouldn't be an imbecile.

I agree with DO -- banning hijab is ridiculous.

Just like banning any form of clothing is a bit ridiculous.

Banning the hijab is actually a religious intolerance issue, it is not a feminist one despite how badly people might want you to think that. You can't compare these two.

Does it make them imbeciles if they choose to wear a hijab?

Are you an imbecile for choosing to wear a Chistmas jumper?

I was talking to wjessop, but I'd like to point out that is is a very similar thing. It's considered a symbol of oppression because women are forced to cover their hair and body. Now that it's a choice, why can't they wear it out of choice.

Same with the name. If they have a choice, why is it bad that they choose to do so? Are you trying to ban women from the freedom of choosing how they wish to be addressed? Isn't that just as bad?

@Yoyo: No one's trying to ban women from anything...

@Yoyo: No one's trying to ban women from anything, here...

But why discourage women from choosing what they want to be called, with some people going as far as insulting their mother for doing it?

Isn't that a direct parallel to the people who ridicule women for wearing hijabs?

DO is right that the hijab is used as an example of a feminist/"women's" issue, but it's unavoidably also going to be a religious issue (and religious intolerance).

It's also a really easy go-to for people. A more interesting example would be black women wearing weaves -- or women, generally, shaving their hair. All the little things that women have been trained to do to position themselves in relation to men.

I know a lot of healthy marriages where the woman goes by Mrs.
To call them oppressed every time they are referred to as that is pushing it in my opinion.

@Yoyoyozo: It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about -- no one has "insulted their mother" here.

One of the main aims of the 'Ms' title is to highlight to women how, historically, they have been categorised unfairly and unequally on the basis of their personal relationship.

Whether women choose to recognise this and move away from it is entirely their choice.


As for you follow-up question on the hijab, I think your question still lacks the care of realising that treatment of the hjiab in Europe/North America is much more a product of Islamophobia/religious intolerance than it is a women's issue.

That's proven in the fact that you're only referencing an Islamic clothing material; rather than Jewish or denominational Christian clothing used as cover-up material for women.

Everyone go read "The Origin of Family, Private Property, and the State" by Engels :)

Also, I thought it was wearing the niqab at events where people need to be identified was the controversy. Not hijabs.

@Flum: It's an interesting point -- and perhaps identifies another part of the religious intolerance infused in the debate around Islamic cultural clothing, and why Yoyo is thus referring to the hijab and not the niqab, etc.

I'm sort of glad that an innocent question can still lead to these kinds of discussions.

Thanks for the help, guys!

Glad to be of help! :)

Black women? Errr don't bring up race, that's a whole separate issue. Black women wear weave because society demands that their hair is a certain length and has a texture similar to white people, but I don't want to get into that.

You bring up an interesting point about women shaving their legs, but I think that's their business. A lot of guys like shaved lega and if they want guys attention, they'll do that. It's just like the guys that think the girls like beards will grow a beard. It's the way sex work. Everyone tries to maximize their sex appeal to attract people.

But you're forgetting a big part of this. It's called self esteem. If a black girl feels beautiful wearing weave, leave her the fuck alone. If a woman wants to be called Mr. Dad, whatever. The key to solving this problem is not insulting black girls for wearing weave, it's to tell her than she'd be gorgeous without out.

Tbh, I don't even have a type, most girls keep up with basic hygiene are fine in my book.

Sorry, Stephee, but I'm definitely taking credit for this one.

Lol

Long. Dark, and Handsome.

My bad, you don't want to ridicule women for wearing the hijab, you want to ridicule them for shaving their legs and wearing makeup, which is SO much better.

Like I said, you're going about this the wrong way.

I know a lot of people in the homeschooled Christian Bible Belt. While I may crack jokes about that culture sometimes, they truly seem to be among the happiest people.

I think you're being unfair to wjessop here. He never said we should ridicule women for the choices they make. And in fact, I think you'll both find you're advocating for similar things.

I will say I hate the "whatever makes you happy" argument, as it allows us to overlook actual problems when a lot of the examples you point out are actually "you'll be unhappy if you don't do this because society will judge you" versus "this will make you happy"

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's right because people are happy. I was more just thinking aloud.

Oh, that was directed towards Yoyo and his analysis on shaving legs.