This happened in the peanut gallery game, and worked pretty well for Austria.

My opinion is that stabs between A and I really need the right timing (in terms of alliance structure on the rest of the board), and that this is often missing.

gameID=126887 is another one - together with my TA mendax, our Italy stabbed Austria in 1902, leading to a solo.

Thanks ATC. A didn't attack I because I violated Tyo in the first place and felt threatened? Arguably Tyo would be the first stab by I on A, or was this pre-meditated? It did not end well for I if he was the initiator of the animosity. Nonetheless thanks for the interesting example.

The peanut gallery game felt like it was an awful play by Italy that Austria took advantage of. It was hardly a stab as much as a blunder.

Thanks for the next example. So for Italy it can be beneficial if he is 100% sure there is no way T/R will cooperate.

I think statistically Austria rarely gets away with an early stab, as it tends to provide fertile ground for kicking off a juggernaut. Italy can do it, but again too early before serious conflict between Turkey and Russia and you're in trouble mid-game.

I feel its also a pretty good option against a western tripple for italy to instantly stab austria. Ofcourse there needs to be coordination, italy and russia need to be the benefactors and you'll need a turkey thats willing to not be a pain in the ass.

If italy and russia take out austria completely in 1902 - which is possible with the right coordination - both russia and italy should be able to defend against the tripple untill theyre forced to stab the 3rd guy.

And yes, this can be very beneficial to italy as well if he plays his cards right.

If Russia and Turkey aren't already fighting, Italy rarely can get away with a stab unless Austria simply chooses to ignore it and let Italy go to town on his centers. If Austria defends properly, Italy would end up with Trieste at most, which is not a fair deal considering that in order to defend property, he must sacrifice ground to the juggernaut.

Usually when people try something funny as Italy, I take them down with me because it's plain stupid, and we know it is stupid because examples of it working are so rare.

I don't think it's fair to call Italy's play in the Peanut gallery game awful. Sure, the results were awful, but there were some seriously good opportunities that it created. Imagine if I'd gone to Bud and Gal in F02 instead of attacking Turkey. Or, if I'd opened to Gal instead of respecting the DMZ.

I see how it looked silly from outside the board (or only looking at the results), but from inside the game I think his play was reasonable. I think the problem was more that we (Turkey and Russia) didn't step in to help him, rather than he made the wrong call altogether. From memory, we discussed me stabbing Austria in 1902 at length. I remember being pretty tempted. If I'd done it, it would have been a matter of ensuring that I was happy to wintergreen rather than R/T (easy to do by offering something Turkey can't, like Munich). Clearly, the game didn't play out that way, but I think it could have. I don't think the moves were terrible, and PW's diplomacy is strong.

On your other comment, I agree that no RT makes a stab of Austria possible. But I wouldnt want to say that that's the only situation where Italy can stab Austria.

I feel like no RT is more important for stabbing Italy as Austria rather than the other way round. The only time I've stabbed Italy immediately as Austria is when I was allied with a Russia who had an army in Armenia. If anyone has examples of great AI stabs early game with an RT (or no aggression there), I'd be super interested.

Bo: I would argue it's more that people are generally poor at playing Italy. I've said this before, but I think that the other countries have many many solid strategy articles available, but Italy's articles are generally lower quality for some reason.

I really like Toby Harris' older Italy article (I'm on mobile, so not going to link it)- he talks extensively about several different openings and why you might make them.

Not sure if its uploaded anywhere, but if it is check the top board of the French NDC this year. There was a WT, and an juggernaut. Italy stabbed austria with the juggernaut and continued to do really well under the circumstances. Ofcourse live games that do have a time limit have a slightly different dynamic but I do think he couldve continued to do well if the game continued with the right moves.

Ofcourse it also varies a LOT depending on whether you opened with a key or a standard lepanto. If youre allready in trieste or serbia/budapest stabbing austria becomes a lot easier for italy.

Relatedly, I was in a game recently where Italy took Trieste and then (or, more likely, already) ran an AI- Italy built two fleets and slammed in to France, while Austria was unable to build any more fleets, so Italy felt safe extending. I was Germany in that game, and it was a very frustrating alliance to fight.

Once you get over the nervousness of crazy openings like that, you have a strong trust bond, AND it's nice because the rest of the board are asking Italy to stay in Trieste (or generally fight Austria), and he gets to look like he's playing along.

I'd also be super interested, I feel, as Italy, you must be 100% sure there is never gonna be any R/T action and how is that possible (apart from luck that R/T don't agree or have messed up their relations) in the early game? I think the problem of Italy stabbing Austria is the Balkans, there are just too many sc's there. If you just get Tri (and Vie in the best case) you're most probably still dealing with a Turkey in possesion of Ser, Bul and Gre, as Austria had to give up that territory to deal with Italy. I feel it may seem like a good idea for Italy (you get an extra sc in Tri) in the end it never is.

How about Austria stabbing Italy? Also only possible if you have a DMZed Gal, a Russian boat in Rum and a contested Bla? And in 02 the earliest I guess?

Yeah, but I feel the mediated Italian in Trieste is not a stab, it's just a great play imo, that doesn't get used often enough. If Italy backs Austria in the Med, Austria doesn't need Tri if it gets Gre and Ser in 01. A/I alliances are so strong that I never understand an Italian (or Austrian) early game stab.

I think if you can engineer (or jump on the band wagon) the rest of the board to make an RT unattractive, then you can come out with a strong IR or IT regardless of whether or not you stab Austria first.

I think that depends on what's happening with E/F/G more than whether or not R/T can work together (although it is obviously better if they can't).

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=161926#gamePanel

This one worked out for me

Wow that is one impressive win ssorenn and exactly the example I was looking for. I guess you lured Russia into attacking Turkey by offering him the most out of it, banking that if he got the biggest you could ask for Germany's help? Securing you get the spoils in the long run. Would that have worked if Germany wouldn't have moved into Vienna though? Great victory nonetheless.

gameID=148464 (gunboat)

This one turned out well for me even though my initial attack against Aut was an utter failure.

Thx. It's important like you said to make sure RT isn't going to be a problem. As Italy I try to establish wintergreen or a possible IT before my assault on Austria.

Here's another where a key lepanto was set up, but it did not work that way

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=159057#gamePanel^^^

The problem with attacking Austria as Italy is that it's pretty hard to take back and turn around, and a smart Austria knows that. For this reason, it's almost always in Austria's interest to sell out defending against Italy, and then Turkey often gets Greece and Serbia before Italy can get rolling. What I think about as Italy when considering attacking Austria is a) if RUssia stays out of it, will I have enough of a jump on Austria that I would be able to roll on Turkey next and b) how soon until I need a third fleet? If Turkey is going to get Serbia and Greece and throw down to western fleets, I'm screwed. So I'd either want to have an agreement from Turkey to build armies in winter 1901 or just have an absurd jump on Austria like that provided by a Key Lepanto (which is a horrible, horrible opening as Austria that you should never do- Key is fine, Key Lepanto is absurd and should never ever be done). Either way, the stab doesn't come in Spring 1901- more likely Spring 1902.

The first question to ask as Italy is whether or not Austria is a complete arse that would drive you mad to try and work with. If he is you might as well attack him hard from day one and sell it as a demonstration to Russia / Turkey / both as a demonstration of your eagerness to work with them.

Here's another good case, where Italy attacked Austria off the bat, and ended with IT. Still was a draw, but Italy did flourish

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=148278#gamePanel

I'm not a good enough player to say what either should do in terms of stabbing each other, especially at the start of a game.
When I get either Italy or Austria, I really try to form an alliance of the two, and if the other chap agrees then stabbing him is the last thing I'll do.
It's a great alliance if it sticks
Together you can eliminate Turkey, then go after Russia and France, and Germany.
Of course this is "hypothetical"
For future games when I am playing either nation i should tell the other players that I want them all to get solo wins and all I want is a few neutral sc's along with my home sc's and a bowl of thin gruel, and to sit quietly and watch them win glory

"Imagine if I'd gone to Bud and Gal in F02 instead of attacking Turkey" Yes, you might have won the game, you backstabbing... oh... sorry, I have these flashbacks. I'm seeing people with white coats on the driveway?

gameID=168313.

Worked out for me in the end, but not without some serious difficulties in the mid-game. By the way, ssorenn, I owe you an EOG!

gameID=166519.

This game is in progress, but Italy did very well out of the opening and is currently on 16 so pretty good chances :)

gameID=133607

In this game, I (playing Italy) moved into Trieste without Austria's consent, hoping to force him into playing a Key. He refused, and in 1902 it was an all-out war. Ended quite well for me.

I'm with the people that think Italy's moves in the Peanut Gallery game sucked.

@Yale- I thought they were pretty good in the midgame :-)

Which of the 7 mid game years where he failed to take a center are you referring to? Or do you mean the one year where Russia threw him a bone?

http://i.imgur.com/NnoGhN1.giff

I've never enjoyed playing Austria, but as I discussed in an earlier post iusually try to form an alliance with Italy, or failing that, with Russia.
The problem is the continual back stabbing, and its happened yet again.

So I'm of the view that unless the Mighty Mods instruct me otherwise, then the next few times I get stuck with Austria I will try the experiment of destroying Austria in a way that punishes Russia in particular and Italy as well by encouraging and enabling Turkey to quickly become the "juggernaut" monster that both those nations fear
At least I won't suffer the frustration of helping Italy and / or Russia only to be backstabber.
Of course I understand that the double cross is part of the diplomacy caper, and freely acknowledge that I am no innocent or saint with regard to this aspect of the game

Damn typo's should read.....
........helping Italy and / or Russia only to be backstabbed.......

@Mitchell: I tried that too gameID=170419. Didn't go too shabby, actually.

@Claesar
Thanks for your comments, I had a look at that game, first comment is that Russia made an unusual set of opening moves, and you played a fairly conventional set of opening moves, eg secured Serbia etc and in the Autumn move the supported attack that captured Greece

I was thinking of:
Army Budapest to Rumania
Army Vienna to Galicia
Fleet Trieste to Venice
as my opening moves, and then either holds or something equally destructive to Austria to follow up.
So key differences are, I'd make no attempt to secure Serbia of Greece, and play a spoiling role against Russia fora few moves

Damn typo's
......Serbia or Greece...

If you get stabbed then you need to work on your game. Not throw all games as Austria to teach them a lesson.

I doubt they'd learn and I'm not doing it for that purpose.
I'll do it, of I do, for my own amusement.
There are always some of my games where it gets to a point where it's better to quietly euthanize a nation in a bad situation rather than continue to invest any serious effort

Please do not post Italy stabbing Austria accusations on the forum.
Austria stabbing Italy is far sexier.

I like playing Austria, it suits me. But I have never considered an early stab on Italy. I'm not sure how it would work.

Trieste to Adr
Vienna to Tyr
Bud to Trieste

or the real version ive tried before Vie-Trieste, Bud-Gal, Trieste - Alb
followed by Alb-Ionian, Vie-Trieste, Bud-Serbia