Oh yes, I have been a firm proponent of 'Grexit' for over two years. Austerity has not and will not worked; that debt will never be repayable. Default is necessary, go onto the drachma, and devalue & export their way back.

Russia doesn't really have the money for big investments in Greece, though extending the upcoming Black Sea pipeline through to Thessaloniki is already going to happen. China is investing heavily in Piraeus port, which is in a great strategic location, too. Whether Russia or China would pay significant sums of money for a Mediterranean military base is an interesting option though.

I'm saying Russia or China will choose to bail Greece out. Russia still has 340 billion in foreign currency reserves, and can stay stable/increase those reserves with current oil prices.

The problem is that Greece's main exports currently are cotton and fish, I believe. And those are mostly sold to the EU already, so there's not much room for growth there.

One of the quirks the euro does for Greece is allow Germany, and other European countries (but especially Germany) to buy raw olive oil (or indeed olives), bottle (and press) it, and then sell the completed olive oil for less than what Greece (and also Italy) are selling it at, undercutting them with their own goods. Greek olive oil is known as a premium product here in Europe, and Greece could get a lot more money from it outside of the Euro than it does in it.

And if they turn Piraeus into a major shipping hub; which they very well could (where else in the Eastern Med is there competition? Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Egypt and Libya are obviously no-goes, and Turkey has its own problems), that could spin a hell of a lot of money a la Singapore style, with the Suez trade routes stopping off there, along with the Black Sea trade routes as well. It's in a good crossover zone.

I don't believe either Russia or China will outright bail Greece out. It'd take all of Russia's reserves, and they have their own crisis to deal with. China could afford it, but I think they'd rather buy privatized Greek assets on the cheap after Grexit and then invest for the long-term that way.

Its just sad that Tsipras took a recovering economy (3 consecutive quarters of growth, improving fiscal situation) and just drove it straight back into recession and worse because he won't touch reform.

We have different definitions of recovering. Nobody on the ground was seeing that 'recovery', it was just getting worse and worse for the people. I think Greece will vote 'No' this weekend and that will be that.

Who are the fucking MORONS that support the Greeks? The Greeks....who have said, "FUCK YOU EUROPE!!! We will be as financially irresponsible as we wish....we will demand that everyone retire at 55...and all of YOU fuckers can retire at 75 so you can pay the taxes necessry to bail us out so we can live our life of leisure at your expense...."


And retard that supports the greeks is a fucking moron...and they should volunteer themselves as Eternal Slaves to Greece....

Greece is the EPITOME of Libtard Socialism....which is why so many of the Libtard morons around here are quivering in fear that Greece will collapse, and are whole-heartedly applauding the idea of RESPONSIBLE OTHER-PEOPLE bailing them out...FOR THE THIRD FUCKING TIME.


FUCK GREECE.

Let those idiots starve....After all, Greece...the4 birth place of modern thought, right? You think THEY, of all people, could have figured out that when you don't have anyone working, and you demand the governement pay for people not to work, and you don't have enough tax revenue to support the lazy assholes....that this would lead to a problem.

Fuck the Greeks.

The Greek people have MULTIPLE TIMES voted down the idea of Austerity....i.e. the idea that you do NOT get to retire at 55 and sit on your ass and let the government support you, even though the government has no revenue.

This is a fucking SELF-INFLICTED WOUND. The Greek people have choosen suicide....so be it. Let it be as it was decided by the majority.

@Hellenic Riot, etc, etc, other supprters.

If Greece was stupid enough to enter into a system whereby their economic resources could be captured and sold by others at a profit to them (and a loss to Greece) then ONCE AGAIN...FUCK THE GREEKS. They are arguably a smart people, right? Birthplace of philosophy, etc etc etc. You think they could have figured out they were being screwed.

But....OH....what that? They were promised LAZINESS!!! They were promised retirment at 55, and government largess whenever it wasneeded....

Of course, any intelligent person knows that doesn't work. And Greece REJECTED logic in favor of greed....and therefore they rightfully suffer.

Let the fuckers fail. The world will absorb the VERY TINY hit to the financial markets. Helll....they already have. MOnday the stock market tanked...Tuesday...they had gains. Crisis over.

Move along...move along....nothign to see here but a bunch of selfish dildo's realizing that they might have to actually WORK for their personal comfort...

If Greece leaves the euro, the euro stops being "permanent". If the euro stops being permanent, then German euros are not the same as Dutch euros, Spanish euros, Italian euros, etc etc. It'd essentially become a currency pegging mechanism.

And, well, history just shows what's happened to every one of those.

Greece itself doesn't matter, at all, to the world at large. But the precedent Greece sets, that really does matter.

As for bailing them out: No, I am firmly against a third bailout. I want them to just outright default on all the debts owed to public sectors (IE. the ECB, IMF, and rest of the Troika), though not the 10% or so of their debt that is owed to the private sector (otherwise you get the vulture funds that Argentina has been struggling with lately). That way, you get a couple of years of pain, but then big growth, much like Argentina after the early 2000s crisis.

As for Greece being the epitome of socialism: lol. Scandinavia is your better example there, particularly Norway. Which also happens to be doing brilliantly. Greece has been a corrupt hellhole for nearly a century.

PS. The Greek retirement age is 66 and is being raised to 67 this year. Which is about the same as the UK.

Not that raising the retirement age does much good when unemployment is at 25.6% and youth unemployment (14-28 year olds not in education) is at over 50%

That sounds like Spain.

Except the Spanish are bucking up and taking it.

Have you seen how Podemos is polling in Spain? Spain has its own SYRIZA that will be the second biggest party at a minimum after the elections this year (with a coalition between the main two), and will probably win the election after that.

The Greeks deserve this because they cooked the books? Who cooked the books? Every Greek? Give me a fucking break. This is like saying the German war dead of WWII deserved what they got because of what the German government did in 1914. Absolute tripe, and a twisted authoritarian way of viewing humanity.

That's a good analogy Thucydides.

Not^^

It's exactly the same. The Greek people have nothing to do with this, they should be left out of it.

The Greek people have an elected government that made terrible choices on their behalf. They are part of it, where they like it or not. Unfortunately this doesn't end well. It is sad :((

HR, I'll listen to you on politics after Labour wins when you say it will :p

So when are the talks about making the Eurozone a true fiscal union (not just a monetary one) happening? Until that happens, Greece2 will happen somewhere.

Lol ssoren, it's cute that you think there is such a thing as democracy. Ironic especially in the case of Greece. You honestly think the government said to the people, "alright; we're going to cook the books. Yea or nay?"

What syriza is doing is admirable in large part because they are putting this to a referendum. The fact that this is considered untoward says a lot about the whole process. The fact that Juncker's subsequent publicizing of the deal's details is considered unprecendented is equally telling. This is rich people squabbling with each other, wherein ordinary poor people the price, sometimes the ultimate price. The parallels with pointless wars are in that respect very strong

Thucy, you said the creditors should reap what they sow. I showed you that the Greeks were the sowers of this crisis, or at least the Greek government.

Had it not been 7 years now since the crisis began (5 years after it began in earnest) then I'd feel a bit more sympathy towards the Greek people. But they elect their government and thus had a chance to fix things. The Portuguese and Irish (countries of a similar size in a similar situation) have turned things around in the same time period. The Irish economy grew 4.8% in 2014. Portugal has been less successful (blame Spain) but has still grown in 6 out of the last 8 quarters.

Goldfinger is quite correct

Thucy you may maintain your skewed version of how the world works. The reality is they took and took and now they're in a bad place that is a detriment to the rest of the global economy.

The creditors shouldn't "reap what they sow," they should just fuck off. It's not about who sowed what, it's about who needs this money more. The ethical thing to do is obvious

Creditors are not in that business. They're there to make money. If they weren't there they would of had nothing to borrow in the first place.

By had a chance to fix things, you mean, had a chance to destroy their country for the sake of paying back "debts" they themselves don't really owe, but which the suits in Brussels say they do as they gesture at a balance sheet. Austerity is code for, fuck the poor to bail out the rich. It makes perfect economic sense, zero ethical sense. To hell with it

"Creditors are not in that business. They're there to make money."

EXACTLY why they should fuck off. They don't deserve a dime.