"Chaqa, we're both well aware that you like to needlessly nitpick at the rules, so I'm just going to ask that you stop before you start."

It's not at all a needless nitpick. I've used screenshots before, and seen quite the controversy in the forum as a result of it, and as far as I can read rule #4 I can't see any way that you can possibly interpret screenshot faking itself as falling under its purview, nor have I ever seen a mod or admin rule that it is. That rule is clearly talking about situations where someone knowingly falsely reports a site error in order to cover their tracks diplomatically; faked screenshots aren't "site errors" until the person faking them attempts to get the mods involved to "prove" the fake is genuine (at which point it's not the screenshot but the request from the faker for moderator validation of it that qualifies it as a waste of time).

As for their actual use, I think people sorely underrate their value. First of all, screenshots are really hard for the average user to doctor plausibly. Not only do you have to know how to edit the text in the screenshot (which isn't very involved, but certainly isn't intuitive), you also have to know how to rewrite whatever it is you want to have said in a way that's believable. They aren't an ironclad heuristic of authenticity, but they're a fairly reliable one. Secondly, due to the difficulties listed above, if you happen to make a request in real time for a screenshot and the other player obliges, you can be nearly positive it's genuine. Finally, even if you are fully aware a screenshot can be faked, it's still a pretty powerful visual image for most people. Even if it's mechanically not very different from C/P, it carries a lot more weight in the mind of the average player, and so there is a significant gain to be had for employing them.

I do tend to think that they should be avoided - it's a live-by-the-sword situation for certain, and even if you subsequently shape up your act so you can't get caught with your pants down, it's just not fun to have constant purity tests in the form of repeated requests for screencaps. But if you need to use them to win a key diplomatic battle, then there should be no problem with doing so, as far as I'm aware by both the rules and my own experience with them.

Wouldn't posting a link to a screenshot qualify as conducting diplomacy outside the site?

Wait, Bo Sox, why could someone complain to a mod about a faked screenshot and, on what grounds, could the mods investigate it? What rule does it break?

@sulram,

Thank you for bringing this to our consideration. You are of course correct to suspect that this sort of behavior is largely against the spirit of the game.

Of course, this particular technique has become part of the established cannon of permissible mischief so to forbid it now would contradict established precedent.

Honestly though, only noobs really use it more than once every dozen or so games.

@Virtual Bob, there is no rule about not conducting diplomacy outside of the site. If the game is FP non-anon, I am completely in my right to give you my phone number have a chat. There have been a few times where I've chatted on FB as it's easier to go back and forth and through the in-site press.

I've always been under the assumption that screenshots are against the rules of the site under "Don't work around game messaging/press rules." If the site doesn't have a feature to take snapshots of people's press then you shouldn't do it. The site has a feature to allow plaintext communication, so copy-pasting is ok.

I know it's a bit of an interpretation and people may disagree, but that's what I thought. I'm very ok and have the capacity to understand that what the site allows and what Diplomacy allows are not equivalent.

Valis, that rule is for games with messaging/press rules. i.e. don't private message someone to get around playing a gunboat or public press game.

I know those are the examples given, but I thought it would extend to other fronts as well. If you're liked me and assumed rule #3 meant "there's a text-only, non-screenshot-taking, non-multi-country interface, don't try to get around the limitations of the medium".


But if people think that gchat/fb/etc is ok then clearly I'm wrong on that front. I just wanted to offer my view; maybe someone else saw that rules and thought the same thing.

I've reread it a couple times now, and I will note that it is "Don't work around game messaging/press rules.", not "Don't work around game messaging/press mechanics.", where the latter is more how I thought about it, but the former is obviously not equivalent to the latter.

Using means outside of webDip to conduct diplomacy is also a somewhat touchy subject, although as far as I'm aware, provided you aren't circumventing any individual game settings, you're not in violation of rule #3. Typically, those who get in trouble for it run afoul of the metagaming rule (because most cases of extra-site communication involve friends using gchat/fb/etc., and while their use of these media isn't a violation per se, some of them end up using them to metagame, which is a violation).

Probably the most succinct explanation of the morals of these stories is:
- If you're uncertain about the legality of something you're planning to do regarding communication outside of that which is mechanically permissible on webDip (and not separately against the rules), don't do it outside of webDip.
- As far as I'm aware, extra-site communication that doesn't violate any of the other rules (no metagaming, no circumventing press restrictions) is fair game from a rules standpoint.
- Regardless of the above, be careful with using things like screenshots, because some people (perhaps rightfully and certainly understandably) see it either as bad etiquette or as a strategy they can't be comfortable enabling, and so may be more likely to align against you for employing it, all else equal.
- If you're playing the game in good faith and trying to be fair, then you probably won't run aground of any trouble with communication outside of webDip; even if you do end up somehow technically violating the rules, the mods aren't capriciously looking to punish any violation they see, and they're generally pretty good about being thorough in working with people to determine whether a particular incident was an honest accident or something more sinister.

So...can we get a ruling from someone besides bo sox? Is doctoring screenshots against the rules?

A lot of people copy-paste press logs to other players (including me) to achieve some diplomatic goal.
Some people definitely do send screenshots to give evidence in favour of some argument.
If doctoring copy-pasted press is not illegal (which it certainly isn't), doctoring a screenshot is not illegal.
It is almost definitely not wasting mod-time as for reasons stated by other earlier, the mod has no business getting involved. Could you imagine players complaining to mods that copy-pasted press was doctored? Quite obviously not. Thats absurd - So what the hell is a player complaining about doctored screenshot press - it is equally absurd.
I would actually be impressed if someone spent time and effort to doctor a screenshot to hoodwink me (or anyone else) and succeeded.

Its also ironic, not to mention hilarious, to see Swearengen talking about certain methods being 'against the spirit of the game' after recently starting a thread where his primary argument was 'any and every method of cheating and deceit is in the spirit of the game even if it violates explicit site rules'

Wait, someone hasn't muted Al?

So two quick things guys.

First off - this issue (screenshots) has only ever really been a forum debate. I can remember only one time in the past 3 years that it ever came to mod action. I don't really remember what the conclusion of that was, though. I think Bob had the right of it though, since it violates the principle that all diplomacy must be conducted on site.

Second, Yonni is dead wrong. No matter what type of game it is, ALL press must be conducted on site. Press via PM or anything else is forbidden. I can't tell you how many people have been docked points for that. The reason for this is painfully clear when it comes to cheating accusations.

YHN - to answer your question...well, to not answer your question....it's a grey area that I'm not sure the mods ever ruled definitively one way or the other on. ''

As for the strategy of copy/pasting, it has its benefits and weaknesses. Yes, you can easily doctor it to say what you want it to say. I have done it from time to time myself (probably 50/50 on doctored v non-doctored). But, it does completely break all trust between you and the person you sent it to, and they will be wary of what they tell you in the future.

How is sending a screenshot conducting diplomacy outside the site?
You are sending the screenshot through the medium of in-site press.

GF, since when has that been a thing? Maybe it should be more clearly worded in the rules. I've only ever done it a couple of times - when the turn end is nearing and we keep cross-posting - but it seems odd to rule something out like that. Or at least seems weird to forbid in non-anon FP games.

I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm not actually sure that the connection to cheating is painfully clear.

While I think it's sensible and correct that all diplomacy press must be handled via in-game client...

In fairness to Yonni, the current rulebook really only talks about forbidding getting around Public Press Only or No Press game modes; there is no to little talk about what's allowed for FP Non-anon.

You'd think a doctored screenshot would be an obvious photoshop, or maybe...hm, could it possibly be a ploy to get the aggrieved party to take a REAL screenshot "proving" that's not what he said?

I don't know how you'd even doctor a screenshot. Just photoshop?

@Sh@dow - as I said, I forget what the actual mod ruling of that case was. What I stated was my personal opinion, not mod policy. It is a grey area that has been discussed, but I forget if there was a direct ruling on it. If there was, I don't remember it.

@Yonni - Metagaming. If you conduct any press via email, facebook, whatever, then there is that much more that could be hidden from mods. That is why it is strictly prohibited.

@Duff

Long story short, with only the most rudimentary of knowledge, I can use my chrome browser to replace any text with any other text.

1) webDip sends some information to Chrome saying "Here's what you should show Valis2501, have a nice day!"

2) Chrome stores that information somewhere

3) Valis2501 can edit that info as he likes

So obviously I can't edit the real information that webDip knows, I can very easily edit what my browser shows.

I find the ingame press sufficient for my press needs but I will say that I distinctly remember a mod explicitly posting on some different thread - that communicating offsite in FP games was not disallowed.

This is from a FP, Non-anon, global chat I'm currently in.
https://imgur.com/a/6 3Ry

goldfinger0303:
"it violates the principle that all diplomacy must be conducted on site"
"No matter what type of game it is, ALL press must be conducted on site. Press via PM or anything else is forbidden. I can't tell you how many people have been docked points for that. The reason for this is painfully clear when it comes to cheating accusations."

What? That can't be the case. Kestas' profile comment is "My MSN is [email protected], if you're in any games with me please add me." (userID=10)

I can only tell you how we operated during my tenure in the moderators. We docked or warned people whenever we found them using email, PM, or FTF to conduct press.

JECE - He probably hasn't edited that in ages. Even I only edit my profile once every few years. I am 99% sure jmo edited mine for me to remove my post that I was a mod haha. Regardless, you can surely see how off-site communication could lead to untraceable metagaming. Anyways, lets not take my word for law until someone currently in power says so.

I think webDiplomacy offers all the means required to play the game according to the rules. No need for extra media.
I have already copied/pasted messages in free press games a few times and i think it is not a very usefull strategy. Maybe only for very particular circunstances.

As a player, someone sending me a screenshot of press would instantly make me suspicious of them. Sending a screenshot seems like someone trying too hard to gain your trust on the matter, especially considering they're so easy to fake (with Chrome, anyhow).

As a former moderator (mainly on vDip, but I was one here for some time too) I would not say that sending screenshots violates any rule, even rule #4. Rule #4 specifically states "Lying is fine in Diplomacy except when it gives mods/admins unnecessary work to do!", so this rule is only broken if the mods/admins are given unnecessary work. So what exactly breaks this rule?

1) Accusing someone (this includes yourself!) of breaking another rule, or hinting that someone has, when you know they did not,
2) Saying that the site misadjudicated, or hinting that it has, when you know it did not (bear in mind this only applies to saying that it was the site's fault; saying that you accidentally misordered doesn't break this).

The above cases both give the mods unnecessary work; the first makes the mods have to launch an investigation for no reason, and the second means the adjudicator is supposed to be looked into - although it probably won't be.
The second case obviously isn't being broken here. The first case relies on another rule being broken, or this being hinted at, and since there are no other rules that cover screenshots this part doesn't cover screenshots either.

You could argue that if someone did send in the screenshot asking for confirmation that it was true, that would waste mod time because they would have to reply. In reality this will be replied to in no time at all, just by typing 'Sorry, we can't tell you that - it's part of the game.' It's no different than if someone sent in some chat someone else had copy-pasted and sent to them and asked if it was true, or if someone asked if the orders France had said he was going to do were what he had actually put in. Lying is part of the game, and we're not going to confirm/deny what someone else has said, unless it breaks either of the previously stated cases.


We never really had any discussions about rule 4 here or on vDip while I was a mod, so this is only my perspective on it, not necessarily the one the mod team holds. However, it was always the one that made the most sense to me - interpreting rule #4 any differently makes the wording extremely ambiguous.

goldfinger0303: Well I was certainly never aware that the old rules changed. While I don't think I've ever sent diplomatic press outside of gameID pages, it certainly wouldn't have made me happy to be docked points for doing something which mods were explicitly OK'ing when I joined the website.

Hell, just the other day I told a new player asking something about muting players that it was OK to conduct diplomacy in non-private full press games via PM.