Because they weren't abducted. Thanks for eliminating any credibility you might have had.

http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz3774ODs23

"Hamas does not recognize Israel"

Which is why they continue to say they'll abide by a ceasefire and why they have in the past. This obsession with "recognition" is just bullshit. Israel doesn't want recognition it wants people everywhere to bow down and claim that Israel has a right to exist.

"Israel did not agree to deal with a Unity gov't in which Hamas participates, while continuing support of armed resistance (I mean actual members of Hamas"

Hamas has shown in the past that when it is included in the political process, peace agreements can be made. This agreement was on US terms and recognized by the US government. Israel doesn't even want to give the unity government a chance and denounced it from day one, knowing that if it accepted it it would be compelled to negotiate and would have no excuses left.

H.H. so I can see that you support the bombings .... how many deaths in your mind should it take before the Palestinians have been taught an important lesson, what is a good number for you? Or is more about the destruction than the actual deaths?
I think we have already agreed you can't kill Hamas as it is a by-word for the anti-occupation of Palestinian lands, that will stop while Palestinian lands are occupied so Netanyahu knows this and knows no matter how much bombing and killing Israelis inflict on the Palestinians we will not prevent the resistance movement, in fact it will just strengthen the movement which then gives more justification to carry on the genocide.

@ H.H: First of all, welcome. It is interesting to have a voice from within Israel itself with whom we can discuss this topic.

I want to address a couple of your statements:

"In short, I an in favour of putting pressure on Hamas to a sufficient degree for the missiles attacks to significantly dimish."

It seems to me that the "pressure"(1) being put on Hamas currently is actually encouraging Hamas to launch missiles.

Hamas has said it will support a ceasefire if Israel backs off, and Israel's leadership has stated that a ceasefire "is not on the agenda". It is the Israeli government that is most committed to preventing a ceasefire.


"Israel does not bomb buildings with civilians"

Yes, Israel does. Here is a recent Al Jazeera report on the bombing of residential homes in Gaza by Israel:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/palestinians-fear-no-place-safe-gaza-201471211335769608.html

Israel has also directly targeted Gaza's water and sewerage systems.


"Human rights, such as ...... the right to vote etc do not exists in Gaza."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Hamas elected? You know, by people exercising their right to vote??


(1) In which "pressure" actually means "killing dozens of civilians".

sorry, I didn't mean genocide I meant the 'important lesson the scum must learn'

""Israel does not bomb buildings with civilians""

What a monstrous lie.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/gaza-death-toll-tops-120-israel-vows-more-attacks

Again, what happened to the Putin33 that was a blanket apologist for all things Israel? The guy who argued the settlements were legal like a good Likudnik? The guy who argued Palestinians were not entitled to a state at all? The guy who, if memory serves, supported Israel's actions in Gaza in 2008-2009? Get too lonely being the one guy at lefty cocktail parties who didn't love Hamas?

The settlements are, strictly speaking legal and I still don't think statehood is viable.

But I know Invictus has never changed his mind on anything, seeing as he's always right. As I've said elsewhere, Israel is an issue I've struggled with.

And I don't recall supporting Cast Lead. Nor was I even commenting around here at that time.

Putin and Nigeebaby continue to use words like "monstrous lies" and use sources which seem highly conspiratory in nature. Unless you two decide to chnge your rhetoric, I'm done with you.


Jamiet99uk: Regarding civilian casulties, I meant to say that Israel doees not TARGET civilians. This is an ideological difference between the two sides. Some civilians are hurt. Yes, even a lot of them. This is awful and tragic. Such is war in every place it's faught, whether Chechnia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria or Mali.

Hamas may back down if Israel does the same. That's why Israel is considering to halt operations for 48 hours to see the reaction of Hamas. As I wrote in my initial post, a great deal of Israelis feel this is a correct way of dealing with the situation.

Hamas were indeed democratically elected. Since then, they have refused to hold elections for parliament or recognize the authority of the PA until the recent attempt at a unity government. Mahmoud Abbas is also guilty of this, staying in power without elections since the death of Arafat in 2005.

Due to frictions between the PA and Hamas, over the abduction and finincial matters (the PA refuses to pay gov't employees in Gaza, Hamas demands they be payed by PA funds), I do not believe that this union will hold on for much longer.

By the way, if you want a genuine left-wing prespective of the situation in Israel,
I suggest the following website: http://www.haaretz.com/.

This government has exposed Israel as not being interested in peace. Hamas is the weakest and most isolated it's ever been. The West Bank has been quiet since who knows when. Everything is there for an agreement and the only obstacle is Israel. This combined with their constant meddling in the affairs of others and their alliance with the Saudis makes them completely unworthy of support.

Ah, so Putin is a secret Zionist ..... I can't believe it !!

I used the Jewish Forward. Is that source conspiratorial? The mainstream media has reported on Israel's bombing of civilians. You can't get with that garbage.

I meant mentioning it later. I may be misremembering, but people who know how to search back posts can find out.

So it looks like you have the worst possible understanding of the matter. You buy into the rank propaganda that the settlements are in any way legal, deny the right of Palestinians to a state, and yet show solidarity with the Islamic fundamentalists of Hamas who seek to destroy Israel. It's schizophrenic.

"Putin and Nigeebaby continue to use words like "monstrous lies" and use sources which seem highly conspiratory in nature. Unless you two decide to chnge your rhetoric, I'm done with you."
H.H. to be fair I've done with people who want to hear the news they believe and cannot handle a dissenting voice ..... anything to avoid answering the tough questions.
Better just chatting to people who believe the same as you, so much more civil and pleasant, then you will never have to worry about being wrong because every one you talk to will believe exactly the same as you .... killing is it not the answer who gives a fuck, they are only Palestinians after all, they are not like real human beings.

Putin, I said i'm done with you, but I just can't resist: if you want me to read the Jewish forward (though I didn't mean that particular newspaper) and seriously consider your replies, stop using such words as garbage. This should be a civilized discussion.

I've read some of your other posts in different threads, and you are far too inteligent to let emotion get the better of you. By the way, why the username?

"I like how you dropped in you were jewish obi, when it wasn't even relevant."

Yeah...I'd argue that when you discuss something Israeli/Palestinian related, it probably matters if you're a Jew or not, since maybe, just maybe might affect how you view the situation, either as a Norman Finkelstein anti-Israel activist or as a pro-Israel supporter.

"Because Hamas has been willing to negotiate and Israel hasn't."

I have cited numerous times and numerous sources now that say they're NOT ready to negotiate, Putin...

"And Obiwan, let's not pretend you've blamed both sides. You've been blaming one side entirely for this recent conflict. At least be honest about it."

Did I say I blamed Israel for this SPECIFIC conflict? No.

I specifically said I blamed them for their actions in the West Bank...

Can you not keep track, or are you doing what you yourself accuse Israel of doing and just lumping any and all Palestinians and action against Palestinian groups into one category, as if there were no distinction in the causes or nature of the conflict between Hamas and Israel and the Israeli settlers and the the PLO?

"By the way, why the username?"

Because Putin33 is a fan of the always-peaceful, never-annexing Vladimir Putin.
And Assad.
And the Kim Dynasty in North Korea.
And Joseph Freaking Stalin.

And yet still he claims to be on the right side of democracy and history.

Putin is irrelevant

Stalin? Really? The dude who killed millions?

Oh, I'm sorry, he probably doesn't recognize the resolution of the 20th Comunist Party congress either.

Sorry for slipping into emotion as well, but I've had family members suffer prosection at the hand of that butcher.

Is there anyone on this forum who would object to everyone in Gaza being killed and Israeli just adding Gaza to Israel?
Surely it is only a matter of time ......

H.H and Invictus are hereby my new dream team, lol.

I'm sorry about your family though, H.H :/

"Is there anyone on this forum who would object to everyone in Gaza being killed and Israeli just adding Gaza to Israel?
Surely it is only a matter of time ......"

...Have you been drinking again, Nigee? O.o What kind of statement is that?

obi - you were just asking H.H for his opinion - it would be one thing to be like this is my opinion, as a jew, but the way you had to be like hey fellow jew was amusing to say the least.

and you could have let puting respond to the question h.h. asked instead of jumping in with you're usual bullshit. most of the points you made were irrelevant to why his username is putin33, but you have to be your usual asshole and try and score cheap points.

Obi - that is a statement you would support in time but are scared to say because you want to manage our expectations, you are part of the problem here. Check those hands, the blood never fully washes off, even after the killing stops.

Glad to be on the team. This is truly a Jewish world conspiracy come to life.:-)

Yes, I will say that people who have lived in the USSR and left have a bit of a firmer grasp of democracy than those who didn't.

Socrates Dissatisfied: My usual bullshit? Do you mean this current thread? 5 posts does not really mean usual, so... I admit the username jab was a chep shot and uncalled for. What can I say, we each have our hated world leader.

H.H, I'm not so sure, I think maybe those that have studied democracy for years at high levels have a bit of a firmer grasp of democracy than those who haven't.

h.h, the usual bs was to obi, you have not as yet talked enough to have 'usual' bullshit. obi always tries to make cheap irrelevant points.

i meant that obi could have let putin respond to your question about his username, whereas instead he responded, with a lot of irrelevant information, just to make a point.