Squiqs - oh, I've played a couple - M1 and 2...I'm quite aware of the high pressure scare tactics of riling up the mob. Smear a little lipstick on a guy's collar when he's not looking and them claim he's been sleeping with Putin just to get the discussion going...

uclabb - they have to create new information posts? lol New information about what? Are you looking for a good pastry recipe? Perhaps on commentary on the odor of your breath? There is little to nothing to discuss right now. that being said...yes....this whole exchange is creating the information...and I'm just playing devil's advocate to get the ball rolling.

Anyway...just sayin', you do have a little funk about you. A little light on the old tooth hygiene? Or something more....sinister....

@krellin- Yeah, they do. For example, in M2 pj wanted to post something, so he posted to you about how you two should put the most recent game in the past and have a clean slate. This was pretty clear buddying and was a scum tell (and turned out to actually be showing us two scum).

I am not dismissing discussion on day 1 at all, on the contrary. I am trying to start discussion. I am just frustrated because I am eager to start the game with all of it's crazy voting, bandwagons, 50 page rereads, and role reveals, and on day 1, you start with nothing. Near the end of day 1, we actually do have things happening (at least we did last game) so you are able to get semi-accurate scum reads on certain people, but right now, there is almost nothing to go off and I am restless to play.

How are you trying to start discussion?

So uclabb - what do you want to discuss - give us a specific direction/topic.

1st post - asked for a suggestion on how to proceed in a better way
2nd post - called Chaqa out on just saying agreed
3rd post - gave my opinion on WIFOM
4th post - gave my opinion on analyzing too much and pressuring people
5th post - expressed frustration at slow pace of game

I feel as though my first four posts were not fluff posts, and actually have things that you can talk about and discuss. Other than you, Uclabb, I think that I have posted the most. I nowhere said that I did start discussion, because no one has really responded to what I have said, but I have been posting things that can be discussed and should be discussed.

I gave one- WIFOM.

Here's another- I think we have been too eager to change our votes at the last minute/ create the fear that we will change votes at the last minute. It's hard to say whether it has helped us catch mafia (arguably pj last game maybe but I really think if anything he helped clear himself by handling it so well), but it definitely has caused us to get early role claims from town power roles e.g. both guak and Maniac last game claiming at a time when they weren't even going to get lynched. Does anyone else have an opinion about this?

I'll keep checking in, but at the moment I am join to live game gogogogogo

You really think that we are EAGER to change our votes at the last minute?? I personally dont feel as though people have been actively looking to change their votes at the last minute. The only problem that I saw from changing votes so quickly was when captainmeme died on day 1 from not addressing an issue right before he left. If someone does something scummy right before deadline, then I think that people should switch their votes over if it is justified and the person has had a chance to defend themselves. However, if you are switching votes over to a different person because of some BW appeal, then it is not acceptable.
As far as role reveals go, the fact that last game guak and Maniac role revealed early has nothing to do with late vote changes. Power roles should not reveal unless it is very close to the deadline and they are set to be lynched.

"As far as role reveals go, the fact that last game guak and Maniac role revealed early has nothing to do with late vote changes. Power roles should not reveal unless it is very close to the deadline and they are set to be lynched."

Not true- guak revealed because it seemed like there was an outside chance there would be a late BW on him and he couldn't log on at the end of the turn.

" If someone does something scummy right before deadline, then I think that people should switch their votes over if it is justified and the person has had a chance to defend themselves."

I just fundamentally don't agree that there are such clear scum tells that we should all of a sudden BW on someone out of nowhere. That's how I got lynched as detective in M2, for example.

Last minute vote changes are the ultimate tool of the mafia....no better way than to lynch someone under cover and/or not lynch someone than to have a bunch of wild-ass late-day, last-minute vote swings.

Meaning, that discussion needs to take place early, and votes need to be settled within hours BEFORE the end of day. I'm not saying that discussion needs to end by a certain point in time, but heavy investigations should be done early so as to avoid late-day frenzies.

"Not true- guak revealed because it seemed like there was an outside chance there would be a late BW on him and he couldn't log on at the end of the turn."

There is always an outside chance that a late BW will form on someone. Unless it is probable that you will die unless you role-reveal dont role reveal. The power roles should not worry about an unlikely BW forming on them.

"I just fundamentally don't agree that there are such clear scum tells that we should all of a sudden BW on someone out of nowhere. That's how I got lynched as detective in M2, for example."

I am in no way advocating that we lynch someone out of nowhere. I suggested that if there was a justifiable reason to switch your vote to someone, then go ahead and do it. Basically what I am saying is that your vote should not stay on someone just because it is near the deadline. If you feel that someone other than who you are voting for is most likely to be scum, vote for them, regardless of the timing of the phases.

"The mafia are vulnerable on day 1 because they have to post without having much to respond to- they actually have to create new information/posts, which is hard."

Uclabb, I feel like your whole WIFOM discussion thing is a post in which you created new information without having to respond to anything. Maybe I am understanding what you are saying wrong, but I feel like you fall under your own scum-tell category.

I think I did read that wrong, looking at it again. Can you clarify whether you think mafia have a hard time creating new things at the beginning, and therefore anyone who creates something new is not mafia, OR whether you think that it is hard for mafia to respond to things, so they decide to make up new stuff to talk about in an attempt to look like they are doing something.

"you fall under your own scum-tell category. "

<head smack> Did you honestly just try to say you feel someone is scum already? lmfao.

I did not say that uclabb was scum at all - I was trying to point out a possible inconsistency that uclabb has had (although I think I may be wrong about this now). And just because someone does something that is a "scum-tell" does not mean that they are scum. Stupid townies do scummy things too.

"Uclabb, I feel like your whole WIFOM discussion thing is a post in which you created new information without having to respond to anything. Maybe I am understanding what you are saying wrong, but I feel like you fall under your own scum-tell category."

I have no idea what you are talking about. My WIFOM post was, in my opinion, a very necessary post that, if everyone had it internalized last game, would have led to a much easier town victory and is something I was championing on both the observer and god threads last game. I agree in some sense it isn't alignment indicative, if only because I was complaining about it so much in the god and observer threads that it would have been scummy for me to not bring it up. I think it's possible that you are understanding what I am saying wrong- how is "creating new information without having to respond to anything" scummy? What I was saying and continue to say is scummy (off the top of my head) are either a) making posts with no substance, b) buddying up with other players, c) asking too many question without providing one's own opinion, d) misinterpreting posts in a way that is consistent with having extraneous information, and so on.

cross post with Squigs recent post

I'm saying that it's hard for mafia to blend in early on, and that often the thing that they come up with to say reads as particularly scummy compared to later in the game when they have clear things to say and a role to play.

Uclabb - did you see my other posts?? This is what I was referencing:

"I hate this whole dismissing day 1 discussion thing - maybe I just have been lucky the past two games, but in mafia 2 my number one scum read after day 1 was pj and in mafia 3 it was YJ, each of whom ended up being mafia. The mafia are vulnerable on day 1 because they have to post without having much to respond to- they actually have to create new information/posts, which is hard."

Can you please clarify what you mean by the mafia are vulnerable?? Thanks.

cross posted with uclabb again...

I really don't know why you two are taking so much time to analyze the actions in another game, with other players, and which some of us are not familiar.

For all I know, this distraction is the action of two mafia members trying to put forward a discussion that "seems" important, when in fact it is of little value, since it is discussing the personal interactions of players in a different circumstance, and who are not here.

i.e. let's discuss THIS game, and stop using references to things not everyone is aware of.

Nobody is talking about other games, except as examples, krells. If you think I'm right even before I provide evidence, feel free to skip those parts. :-)

Alright, I think I have got this now. You are saying that:
A) Both mafia and town must come up with new things to say on day 1, because there is nothing to respond to on day 1 like there are on other days
B) The new things that mafia come up with on day 1 appear scummier than the new things that town come up with on day 1.

I definitely agree with A), as that is what I expressed frustration at earlier, but I am not so sure if B) is as telling as you are suggesting. I think that because mafia and town both have clean slates at the beginning of the game (meaning that no one really has pressure, no one has any past actions they are worried about, etc.) the things that they post are going to be relatively similar. Also, what if the mafia just wait until after some things have been said, and then chime in?? Townies are going to be much more eager to speak up and get the ball rolling on day 1, and mafia are going to wait until they can actually respond to something. So unless a mafia is really bold and wants to bring something up brand new, you cant really look at that. And like I said, if they are bold enough to do so, I am not so sure that what they say is going to be any different than what the townies say.

But yeah, like I said, I was completely wrong when I said that you were inconsistent, just a confusing wording that I couldnt wrap my head around.

Krellin - what else should we talk about?? As nothing has happened in this game (relatively nothing that is worthy of note), you have to talk about something else. Strategy seems to be a good thing to talk about, and last game (and other previous games) have good examples of where strategies worked or failed. So please Krellin, point to something that has happened this game and tell us what to talk about.

We can agree to disagree. All I can say is that personally my top scum read coming out day 1 of M2 and M3 were both mafia and, while that was definitely lucky, I don't think it was a coincidence. I think the first few posts are very telling.

Okay, so me, you, and Krellin seem to be hogging the first few posts. What do they say about us?? Any top scum reads yet??

Im gonna take a little break for now, I will probably be back in about an hour, maybe less. Hopefully by then there will be something good to talk about.

I would say neither of you jump off the page as scummy. You were slow to substance (imo) and misread one of my posts (which I consider a slight scum tell) but it certainly hasn't been inconsistent with your play as town last game and also seem genuinely eager to contribute, so I have you as slight town for now.

krellin as mafia tried on day 1 to seem very town and then adopted the role of crazy person for the rest of the game. He isn't doing that this time- he's skipping straight to trolling (imo). If I had to give it a lean, it would probably be slight scum, but not majorly.

Chaqa did the whole vote for himself thing, which is played out if you ask me. If this were M2, I would think it was a town tell, but this is Mafia 4 so I actually think it's more scummy (ie it is a post whose only purpose is to try to seem town, which is higher priority for mafia than town). I also agreed with you that his passive agreement with my WIFOM post was consistent with being a mafia member. I don't feel strongly yet, but I think it's very possible that he is mafia.

Like I said, I'm the scummiest scum in the world.