Well, if I get muted for insisting that fighting for the nation perpetrating the Holocaust was morally wrong and that "I was just following orders" isn't an adequate defense for letting an atrocity occur...then by all means, folks, mute me!

KRELLINS RIGHT GUYS

A lot of German soldiers probably were unaware of the Holocaust.

If we're talking ideologies, a lot of Allied troops fought for capitalism and empire, rather than for liberation of concentration camps. Bear in mind we didn't know the extent of the camps UNTIL we liberated them. Also many Germans believed that the colonial forces of England and France had oppressed and starved the German people following Versailles. So their cause was rationally a just one from their perspective.

Again, I'm not defending Nazis. I just think it's hypocritical to talk of the glorious allied troops and depicting the German soldiers as mindless evil robots.

+1 SYn. Obi, you aren't muted but to think that the average soldier knew what the hell was going on in Auschwitz and other camps is total bullshit. We know now but even we didn't know then to what extent and the Nazi's were hardly going to announce it to the world in the German newspapers and on German radio in the day. So the typical German soldier knew nothing. Those that did know were either fighting under duress and had limited knowledge, or were Nazi perpetrators (whom should *not* be respected and have all pretty much met their fate as best we can tell).

@Draugnar: I very much agree that not every German soldier was a nazi and most didn't deserve to die.

SYnapse said it's always bad to kill people on a beach though, which, to me at least, implies that he thinks that the Allies shouldn't have done the operation and wait patiently until a bomb kills them.

I'm not saying the Germans on the beaches were nazi's, I'm just making clear that being friendly with the nazi regime isn't a very good idea, even if the alternative involves killing arguably innocent Germans.

I would also argue that I didn't exactly turn into an asshole in this thread, but I suppose it's borderline.

To be clear, I care about German casualties just as much as about Allied casualties.

If you guys really think that every German soldier was a Nazi, you need to do a lot more studying on the other side of the world wars, particularly on the massive propaganda machine which expertly hid the atrocities of the dictatorship and publicized its achievements, which (not to downplay the genocide) were actually very, very many.

There was not a single German who didn't know that the Nazis stood for dictatorship, a German master race, and the conquest of other nations. There was not a single German who didn't notice the Jews being treated as second class citizens and vanishing. One could be charitable and imagine they believed they were just being deported or something, but even that is grim enough.

It is the duty of a British soldier to think, to question his orders, and to act according to his moral compass. If a Nazi style government were to somehow take over in the UK then every British soldier who continued to serve would be failing in his duty. If the US marines view following orders as a higher virtue then frankly I will have far less respect for them than I used to.

Yes, the British are the best, glad you could enlighten us today Octavious. Thanks, so so much.

Octavious was there. He interviewed, personally, every single German Soldier and German citizen and thus is certainly qualified for his broad, impossible-to-prove statements.

Did none of you study history? Are you under the impression Germans believed that Jews wore the star of David as a fashion statement? The Nazis were able to get away with what they did because most ordinary Germans were anti Semitic. Hell, lots of people all over the world were. But the Germans took it to a new level. The Nazi faithful led the charge, the military supported them, and the people let it happen.

@ bo

Don't be a twat. That is what British soldiers are taught, but it doesn't make it universally accepted. I dare say is Moseley's black shirts had taken over some would have welcomed it. Some would have carried on regardless, and some would have resigned. Only those who stood down or refused to fight would have been doing their duty. Those who chose to fight under the facist banner, like the German troops, would be worthy of no respect.

"There was not a single German who didn't notice the Jews being treated as second class citizens and vanishing. One could be charitable and imagine they believed they were just being deported or something, but even that is grim enough."

Excuse me, but the same could be said of the actual treatment of Japanese Americans who were all stuffed in internment camps. The German soldiers had about the same expectation of the Jews conditions as the American did of the Japanese Americans. Oddly enough both were wrong. Japanese were treated worse than was generally known and were as much second class citizens as the Jews before the "cleansing" began. In some ways it was worse as the ghetto was at least buildings and the camps for the Japanese Americans were tent cities.

Oct - morals aren't absolute. So as members of the US Armed Forces, we were taught the UCMJ and told if an order violated that (which included the rules of engagement) we were to refuse it as an unlawful order and expect a military tribunal to acquit us.

And Oct, as I doubt you ever served (you don't strike me as the type) you don't know what is actually taught, just what the establishment tells you is taught and the Brits are just as good at propaganda as the US or the Nazis.

"YOU'RE a nice, white, middle-class Christian American male..."

Hey look everyone! Obi called Krellin nice!

Octavious, never, EVER, did I say I "respect" any German soldier of the world wars - either of them. There are just a select few cases where the simple act of being a soldier would garner any respect from me.

Regarding the rest of your bullshit, would you, in Nazi Germany, not fought? Under your theory that everyone knew exactly what was going on, as a German citizen, would you have stood up to Hitler, knowing what he'd do? Would you have subjected yourself to the will of the Nazi government to make a moral stand? If no, then your points here have no merit. If yes, get off your high horse or unicorn or whatever you ride you lying son of a bitch.

The only country without a partisan war against the NAZI's was Germany herself.

just say'n

regardless of reasons, fighting for germany in wwii was one of the worst causes ever, much like fighting for the confederacy in the US civil war. Regardless of individual reasonings and rationalizations.

bo sox . . . so very naive . . . so much to learn.

Um... Italy... Try again dirge.

lol, you tripp'n draug

@ Draug

Once again you are wrong. I wasn't a career soldier, but I took the Queen's shilling for a few years in the TA.

@ Bo

"Under your theory that everyone knew exactly what was going on, as a German citizen, would you have stood up to Hitler, knowing what he'd do? Would you have subjected yourself to the will of the Nazi government to make a moral stand?"

Firstly I never claimed everyone knew exactly what was going on. I suggest you read what I posted again. What I said was that every German soldier knew enough of what was happening to be damned sure Hitler was the bad guy. Pro dictatorship: undisputable. Believers in the master race: Undisputable. Hatred of Jews and other minorities, with state sponsored crime against Jews et al happening in clear view: Undisputable.

To answer your question though, if I was in the German army and I knew everything that was going on, OF COURSE I WOULD FIGHT AGAINST THE NAZIS. What kind of a question is that? It's up there with "would you make your Gran a cup of tea or throw the kettle at her face"? No one worthy of belonging to humanity would say any different, and until you asked that ridiculous question I was utterly convinced that virtually everyone on this forum (aside from the hardcore pacifists) would have said the same.

I know this is a bit late, but @obi:

"This is the "Edward Snowden is a Patriot" thread all over again..."

How dare you use that as an argument if you refuse to answer my very serious reply on that matter? You can't defend your statement in one thread, so your solution is to pretend your statement is uncontested and you just use your imaginary victory in another thread.

I knew you'd do that. Very predictable.

Hear hear, steephie. Obiwan, steephie is right - you haven't answered him in that thread (despite indicating you were going to read his comments and respond) so it's a bit rich of you to make comparisons, here, to your performance in that thread...

I should note though that this is indeed like the "S(n)owden the Patriot" thread, because obi is wrong again.

Post it again steephie, and I'll read and answer it...

I lost track (and if I'm honest, I really think I've said all I can say about the Snowden thing for right now, I've sort of exhausted my case, whether folks agree with me or not...and most don't, but still, I've made my case the best I can, poor as that may be.) :p

That's weak, obiwan.

Steephie posted a concise, clearly argued rebuttal of your argument about Snowden, using about half the word count you would have needed, and you have not responded to it. It's easily Steephie's best work on this forum to date. It's easy to find. There's no need for him to post it again - just go and look. It's on page 3 of the Snowden thread. Steephie posted it on 30th May.