Did did Dev make that speech before or after he signed the condolence book for Adolph in the Dublin German embassy? Before you prattle on about the diplomatic niceties of neutrality find out for me how many other neutral country leaders did that. You will come up with a big fat zero.

Britain all but starved in the war. In my view without Londonderry to facilitate the patrolling of the western approaches, we probably would have. Unless, of course, someone came to grips with Mr Dev.

Churchill was a bit of an odd duck, that's for sure. He may well have been a drunken war monger with more than his fair share of odd notions, but he was what the country needed at the time. That combination of arrogance and a stubborn refusal to admit defeat served Britain extremely well. Although his morals were strangely lacking in some areas, his patriotic belief in the British tradition of doing things above all kept him from straying down too many dark paths. The world is overall a better place because he was in it.

@ Putin: Out of interest, what exactly is your take on the collaboration between the IRA and the Nazis?

"Before you prattle on about the diplomatic niceties of neutrality find out for me how many other neutral country leaders did that. You will come up with a big fat zero."

So what? It was diplomatic protocol. Portugal and Spain also signed the book. So you're wrong anyway.

"Britain all but starved in the war."

You're full of shit. Food prices only rose by 20% during WWII for Britain, compared to 130% during WWI. Anyway, the British starved the Bengalis during the war, that's for sure. Not that you care.

I don't claim to know what fulhamish feels about the Irish. He may well have said all that in other threads. But here, as I see it, he's only attacking the IRA. Nothing wrong with that.

Things seem to have breached out to a different point about the treatment of Irishmen who fought for Britain against Hitler. I have to admit I know nothing at all about this. Such family connections as there still were were gone by the Depression or so.

"Out of interest, what exactly is your take on the collaboration between the IRA and the Nazis?"

The IRA were fighting the British, so why wouldn't they reach out to whatever nearby power was willing to lend them aid? (although the 'collaboration' is wildly exaggerated). Indian nationalists also collaborated with the Germans. Should anybody blame them?

Ah so you now accept how the WW2 volunteers were treated. Your case is that those traitors "had it coming". Well at least we now know how you really feel and no longer have to put up with your denialist shit that these events didin't really happen.

Anyway here is the other side of the story:

"The pardon almost came too late. Only half a dozen remain alive, and of those only John Stout is able to be interviewed. Now 89, he still has vivid memories of his time in the British Army. And he also remembers what banished any doubts he had about leaving the Irish army to join the war effort: the horrors he saw in April 1945 when his unit helped liberate the death camp at Bergen-Belsen, where corpses were piled in their thousands and survivors were like the living dead. “Oh, Jesus. They were skeletons. They had no minds, after all they had suffered. They were like zombies. I thought to myself then, 'This is a cause worth fighting for.’ ”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/10136388/I-suppose-we-deserted-aye.-But-we-were-the-heroes.html

@ fulhamish

Putin does raise a good point about the IRA having some rational justification in supporting Hitler. It is very hard for us to be overly critical of unsavory allies when we spent much of the war in bed with that ogre, Stalin.

Portugal and Spain also signed the book. No Switzerland, no Sweden etc..............

So there we have it. Dev, Franco and Salazar. QED.

Oh spare me the crocodile tears. Your heroes stalled and stalled opening a second front while the Germans bled the Russians white. Many more could have been spared the death camps had the British not been more concerned about defending their fucking empire (remember Churchill's strategy of defending the periphery) than defeating the Germans in Europe.

Not to mention the entire British people didn't give a flying fig about Hitler's anti-semitism during the entirety of the 30s, and did everything they could to empower him and make him stronger, carving up Czechoslovakia for his sake.

But now you want to portray yourselves as heroic Nazi fighters, what a crock.

Plus, c'mon, Spain? Neutral? "Non-belligerent" maybe, but not truly neutral. They supported Hitler economically.

"Portugal and Spain also signed the book."

So you admit you were wrong about neutral countries? Of course not.

"It is very hard for us to be overly critical of unsavory allies when we spent much of the war in bed with that ogre, Stalin."

By in bed you mean doing little more than spectating from the sidelines, yes.

But Churchill's terror bombings made the world a better place, sure. After all, he was an Anglo-Saxon. He gets a pass.

Invictus, I do hope my position is clear to you by now. My knowledge of this subject comes mostly from a proud Irishman in London who couldn't go back to Ireland after the war. I was proud to call him my friend, as well as one of the guys who taught me my former trade. Putin likes to defend the indefensible by branding any critique of Irish neutrality and, particularly, the IRA as being racist.
Funny that he accuses other people of playing the anti-semitic card when Israel is criticised. Pot and kettle?

Can you see how when Putin gets excited the anglophobia starts to come out?

Spain was not permitted to trade freely with the Axis due to the Allied blockade, so their economic aid was limited at best.

You whine about supposed accusations of racism (which never happened) and then call me an Anglophobe (which is used by you to describe anyone who doesn't kiss the feet of your government). You're a winner.

At Octavious, with respect I disagree. It was clear to everyone by the late thirties just what a regime Nazi Germany was. I cannot understand, let alone justify, the IRA's attempt to form an anti-British pro-German alliance I am afraid.

The worst thing about you, Putin33, is how you consistently denigrate the achievements and sacrifices of American and British veterans of World War II.

Shame on you.

The worst thing about him is how long he has spent in graduate school without achieving a degree.

" It was clear to everyone by the late thirties just what a regime Nazi Germany was"

Clear to everyone except Chamberlain and his enthusiastic British supporters. Your government notoriously appeased Hitler up until the annexation of Prague and you want to lecture other nationalities about not falling in line and supporting the empire that held them in bondage once that strategy backfired? Hilarious.

You are very generous with other peoples' countries. But then when it comes to your own you want everyone to drop everything for your defense, when they have no reason to care.

"The worst thing about you, Putin33, is how you consistently denigrate the achievements and sacrifices of American and British veterans of World War II."

Like you don't call the Soviet Red Army a bunch of murderers and rapists? You people can take a hike. Don't you dare start whining about the denigration of sacrifice.

The undeniable fact is that Britain did stand alone. The other undeniable fact is that Churchill, unlike many, would not counternance reaching an agreement or surrender with/to Hitler. Therefore the comment below is not only a distortion and twisting of history, but also inherantly anglophobic:

"But now you want to portray yourselves as heroic Nazi fighters, what a crock."

Soviet war rapes did happen. We just point out an event. You dismiss the entire Western Theater. It's sick.

"The worst thing about him is how long he has spent in graduate school without achieving a degree."

Ouch. That'd hurt if it didn't come from someone who bragged incessantly about their dream job (remember when Santa claimed he was leaving? too cool for school and all) only to later whine about not having one.

"The worst thing about him is how long he has spent in graduate school without achieving a degree."

Reading between the lines, it looks like he got the degree, just not the academic job. Surprise surprise.

"The undeniable fact is that Britain did stand alone."

The undeniable fact is that the terror bombers weren't remotely threatened. One fire bombing of Hamburg killed more than the entire Blitz combined. Hitler was never serious about invading the UK with their tugboats and barges against the Royal Navy. But keep flattering yourselves about your north African campaign, you heroes.

"We just point out an event. You dismiss the entire Western Theater. It's sick."

The western theater was a joke. You call the liberators of Europe rapists. That's sick.

At Invictus you must remember those Irish veterans too. They are reservered a special piece of Putin's spleen. In actual fact they were probably the bravest of the lot, considering what they had to contend with at home.

Right, the multitudes of Irish people who didnt serve the Empire are monsters, but you're not anti-Irish. Or a chauvinist.

You're a joke.