Nicely done.

I don't read either. Doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the show. It does make Diplomacy a little difficult though.

you should read the books, way better. But the tv show is still good and I am super excited.

SPOILER - they make it off the island.

SPOILER...some people will die. And a *lot* of people will get naked.

I'm so apprehensive. Season 1: awesome. Season 2 lost a step. Hopefully they get back on track for 3.

Semi-SPOILER Strategy criticism, I believe the best strategy for Robb should of been a bee line to King's Landing, knowing the Northmen-Riverlands army and Robb's tactical expertise he would been able to defeat the Reach-Westerland army in pitch battle and with Stannis weakening the defenses and morale, Robb could of waited for treachery or had a fairly good chance to capture the city by force. Capture Joffery, game over.

This would have required Robb to adopt All or Nothing mindset still if Robb could Casterly Rock, (capital of Westerlands) that will be a pretty devastating lost for the Iron Throne.

PS I also knows what happens next :)

"knowing the Northmen-Riverlands army and Robb's tactical expertise he would been able to defeat the Reach-Westerland army in pitch battle"

I think that's a hell of an assumption. The reach army alone outnumbered Robb's 3 to 1 I think? Also, why go after King's Landing when an army that is technically not in line with your goals (the reach army) is already poised to cut itself down and help decimate King's landing as well. Best to make the very overture towards the youngest Baratheon that he did, and work together for the common ground that they shared.

There was no guarantee that Robb would have been able to soundly defeat Tywin Lannister's remaining army alone, much less head South. If he had "beelined" he would have had his supplies cut off by Tywin.


The only HUGE strategic mistake I've seen was that stupid bastard Greyjoy in Pyke. He DoW's his only potential ally, rather than joining the rebellion and carving his new kingdom out of Casterly Rock. That's how my mind reads it, anyways.

Yellowjacket is 100% right (except for the numbers):
According to the books at the start of book 2, the Reach army is 60,000
Tywins is 20,000
Steffon Lannister's is 10,000

Robbs is 16,000
Roose Boltons is 12,000

So if Robb could meet up with Roose, which would require marching north back up to the twins and then marching south again on the other side of the green fork, then he would still be outnumbered 2-1 against the reach, 3-1 if facing Reach-Westerlands combined.

In book 3 (not really a spoiler since this is Robb talking about the actions he committed in book 2) Robb said that he didn't think he could beat the remaining Lannister forces if Tywin was commanding all of them. (Storm of Swords chapter 14)
He said his plan was to conduct nothing but raids on the westerlands while narrowly dodging being attacked, so that Stannis could take Kingslanding without the Westerlands being able to reinforce (since Tywin would be preoccupied by him). Sadly Tywin didn't pursue Robb but instead marched south to Kings Landing and saved the day.

This wasn't Robbs fault, this happened because Gregor Clegane lost to Edmure Tully in the Battle of Redford which meant that Tywin was cut off from the west and had no choice but to march south. While marching south he finds out that Stannis is about to lay seige to kings landing so he keeps marching south all the way to Kings Landing, and gets there right in time to save the day.

The biggest mistake in the books was, as yellowjacket said, that Greyjoy attacked the north rather then the west. But this was mostly a matter of revenge, Greyjoy hated Eddard Stark, and saw this as an opportunity to take revenge on what happened last time.

all my numbers are taking from the wiki of ice and fire page, estimating exact numbers based on the size of the armies in various battles in books and 3.

No, the biggest mistake was marrying Jeyne Westerling. Robb is quite sound tactically.

"No, the biggest mistake was marrying Jeyne Westerling. Robb is quite sound tactically."
I would argue against that, but my reasons why would give massive spoilers for book 3, so lets not delve into that too much.

I find it interesting how they simplified that relationship in the show, and just made that girl a combat medic. There is only so much exposition you can show in ~10 hours of time though.

The books are better than the show, but I think the HBO team have done an excellent job capturing it for TV. They've changed some things and they've cut some things, but that's inevitable. What particularly impresses me are the scenes they added not involving Roz. For example, I really liked the added Cersei and Robert conversation early in Season 1 where they candidly and civilly recognize that they never had a chance together.

That was also one of my favorite scenes. Dammit, now I gotta get them DvD's back from my friend so I can prep for the start of season 3.

Robb wouldn't need a supply line, when I mean all or nothing, I mean all or nothing. Like Hannibal and Sherman, Robb could of just lived off the Crownlands, one of the richest parts of Westeros, pillaging food and supplies. You're confusing size with power. The Reach army may be vast, but it's an army of peasants and a small elite noble force and the Lannister's forces are the best armed and supplied they haven't proven all that effective. The Riverlanders and Northmen were battleharden and better trained, under Robb's brilliant command and in a defensive battle guarding a chokepoint, Tywain would have no choice but, to launch his army an attack on a fortified enemy to reach King's Landing in time to help with Stannis's attack on King's Landing. It would of been a Game of Thrones version of Agincourt where Tywain loses practically all of his advantages.

I said this is the best option for Robb winning after he committed himself to the Riverlands (a strategic error of the highiest order) but, ironically enough in this scenario, it might of been Stannis who would win the War of Five Kings with him only losing at Blackwater due to Tywain's reniforcements. With Tywain fighting Robb instead of Robb's army camped in the Riverlands, Stannis would of taken King's Landing, Joffery killed and Tommern poisoned, Stannis would truly be (well to the people of Westeros who don't know the true parentage of Robert and Cersei's children), by laws of successions, the heir to the Iron Throne.

As I see it, after the Battle of the Green Fork (the Stark's diverisonary force), Whispering Wood (capturing of Jaime Lannister), Camps (Robb lifting the siege of Riverrun) at the end of episode 10, season 1. Lannister's lost almost the entirety of Jaime's forces plus Jaime gave Robb the strategic initiative, which he wasted by attacking the Westerlands and waiting for Balon to help him crush the Lannister's and occupy the Westerlands which would have spelled the end for the Lannisters.

On paper, good plan. Didn't work as well as on paper but, there you go. How could have Robb guessed Balon's mind-bogging stupidity. He passes up a golden opportunity not only to become a King of the Iron Islands again and gain complete independence for his people, and to become both fabulously wealthy and feared throughout all of Westeros by joining forces with the North solely for the sake of getting back at the family that was a PART of the force that put down his rebellion and it was Stannis who led the royal fleet destroying the Iron Isles Fleet.

SEMI-SPOILER because this addresses events in the books that were not in the HBO series. I say semi because the HBO series is past the chronology of these events, so it doesn't spoil non-readers' knowledge of what is coming up.

@airborne: Robb had a plan. The plan was to head to the Westerlands in a deliberate attempt to lure Tywin back to defend Casterly Rock. If the plan worked, Tywin would not have been in place to save King's Landing and Stannis would have won. We don't know what Robb planned next after that, but generally his plans were pretty good. The plan didn't work because of Edmure Tully, but the HBO series skipped over that (probably because they are not introducing him until Season 3).

I don't think you can say that beelining to KL was the best plan for Robb. He would have been caught between Tywin's force and KL and Stannis (who is not down with KITN). If successfully executed, Robb's plan probably would have had a better result.

The takeaway from the whole series is that Tullys suck. Don't trust a Tully; they screw everything up.

Edmure Tully -- screwed everything up.
Catelyn Tully -- screwed everything up (although they make her less of a screwup in the show compared to the books).
Lysa Tully -- screwed everything up.
Hoster Tully -- screwed everything up.

"...Robb the strategic initiative, which he wasted by attacking the Westerlands and waiting for Balon to help him crush the Lannister's and occupy the Westerlands which would have spelled the end for the Lannisters. On paper, good plan. Didn't work as well as on paper but, there you go."

That's what I said in my follow up post, Robb's plan was to get Tywain to defend the Westerlands allowing Balon and the Greyjoy fleet to capture Casterly Rock and catch Tywain between the Northern and Ironmen army, obviously, things didn't work as planned

"Tywin's force and KL" That's exactly what Robb should have done, Tywin would of been forced into a battle where Robb blocks the King's Road to KL and picked the ground of his choosing. Tywin would engage Robb's forces with a ticking clock he had to defeat Robb AND keep on marching on to KL. Things were shaky between the Tyrells and the Lannister's already I can't imagine the alliance between them holding together as Tywin orders Reachmen to attack Robb's shieldwall.

There is no way KL forces can help Tywin before or after Stannis's attack; before preparing for the attack and after too maimed to really do anything.

@Hanged: The blackfish was a total badass though.

@Airborne: "waiting for Balon to help him crush the Lannister's"
No his plan didn't involve the Greyjoys, it would make it easier with the Greyjoy help, but the Greyjoys weren't required for it to work.

Again, in the tv show, there isn't enough information about location of battles etc. to know what could happen, but in the books this wouldn't have worked.

"Tywin would engage Robb's forces with a ticking clock he had to defeat Robb AND keep on marching on to KL"
Unfortuantely that could not work. Robb was in riverrun, Tywin was in Harrenhall.
http://gameofthrones.net/images/Westeros_Maps/Map_Westeros_Political.gif
Harrenhall is about halfway in between Riverrun and Kings Landing, and again, inorder for Robb to get to the Kings Road, he would have to march all the way north to the Twins and go down the other side of the Green Fork. By then Tywin would have gotten reinforcements and been able to crush Robb should he march down the kingsroad. However instead Robb moved West, and after Robb won the battle of Oxcross, he had cut Tywin off from reinforcements and supplies, forcing Tywin to make a move, since Stannis was stuck in a siege at Storms End (something that was left out of the show), Kings Landing was not in danger, so Tywin orders his army to move west, after Gregor losses the battle of Red Fork, Tywin finds out that Storms End has fallen and that Stannis' troops are at Bronzegate marching north onto Kings Landing. So he takes the main bulk of his force, and marches to kings landing where he saves the day.

Also you vastly underestimate Tywin, and I would actually argue that Tywin is just as great of a commander as Robb.

GRRM makes it clear that had Robb faced Tywin in the battle of Greenfork, rather then split his forces like he did, Robb would have lost the battle.

If you have read the first 3 books, then you would know that your plan doesn't work.

Also Airborne you forget that Stannis was not an ally of Robb, Stannis made it clear that once he had taken Kings Landing he was going to attack the North.

If Robb marched for Kings Landing, then Tywin would have gotten there first (my map shows how much closer he is).

If Tywin was inside the city of KL when Robb gets there then one of 2 things would have happened:

Either
a) Robb losses in an assualt, as he is outnumbered 2-1, and taking a castle is almost impossible if you don't have the numbers, Stannis outnumbered Kings Landing 15-1 and even they held off for 4-6 hours before Tywin got there. Although Stannis is not as talented as Robb, he is still a capable general and if he can't take the city when he the numbers are in his favour, then Robb can't take the city when the numbers are not in his favour AND a more capable general is defending the city (Tywin can lead troops far better then Tyrion can). So an assault on KL would not work. The other option:
B) waits for Stannis to get there. This would not have worked because

MASSIVE SPOILER FOR THE SERIES BELOW, MASSIVE SPOILER FOR SEASON 4, DO NOT READ BELOW. I REPEAT DO NOT READ BELOW IF YOU HAVE NOT READ ALL OF BOOK 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stannis, believing in duty before anything else, would have seen his city (KL) under siege by a hostile foe. He would have attacked Robb. The reason I am confident in saying that is that at the end of book 3, Stannis saves the nightswatch even though it wasn't his problem. He actively spends time defending westeros from a hostile invasion, even though he was losing a civil war at the time.
END OF SPOILERS. FEEL FREE TO READ BELOW!
END OF SPOILERS. FEEL FREE TO READ BELOW!

And even if he teamed up with Stannis, They would outnumber Tywin 2-1 at the start of the siege, and then be outnumbered when the Reach forces get there (90,000 vs 60,000).

Having both the numbers,and city walls, there is not a chance in hell that Tywin is losing that battle.

I thought Season 1 was great, Season 2.. it just didn't hit the right buttons for me, still enjoyable to watch but..

Let's hope they get it back together Season 3!

I enjoyed Season 2 just as much as season 1. Book 3 was my fav book, so lets hope season 3 is.

I have played Crusader Kings II Game of Thrones Mod so most of my knowledge of the land comes from there.

The thing is I don't think Robb deciding to go along with his bannermen and be crowned the King in the North. I think the strategic error lay in accepting the riverlords as vassals, however. If he could withdraw beyond Moat Cailin, I'm sure the North could have remained independent. But as soon as he committed to holding the riverlands, the game was practically up. If he couldn't force an early cease to hostilities by beating the Lannisters, it would only be a matter of time before someone consolidated power and came storming at him with three, four, even five times the numbers that he had on hand. The Neck was his biggest strategic asset he had, an easily held territory, that protected the North from invasion by a far larger force. Robb doesn't have a hope of holding on to the Riverlands in the long term. The Riverlands was too vast, too open to invasion, and too important for any of the candidates for the Iron Throne to swallow Robb holding.

While I say Robb beelining to KL and blocking Tywin at Blackrush River on the Goldroad as the best chance, I don't say it's a good one. Either choice Westerlands or Crownlands have daunting strategic problems for Robb. And since the book goes with the attack the Westerlands...

SPOILERS!!!!
Ends horribly for Robb
END of SPOILERS

And no, I know Stannis was not allied with Robb, either way through Robb threatening the capital and Joffery, the whole reason that this war is being fought would force Tywin at Blackwater Rush River anyways

"The thing is I don't think Robb deciding to go along with his bannermen and be crowned the King in the North."
This was a mistake, because it meant it was impossible to become an ally of Stannis or Renly.

"I think the strategic error lay in accepting the riverlords as vassals, however."
Sure doubling the size of your army is a bad idea *sarcasm*

"If he could withdraw beyond Moat Cailin, I'm sure the North could have remained independent."
You forget his reason for going to war, his father and sisters were taken hostage in Kings Landing and we was told to come south and swear fealty to the crown. He called his banners with the sole purpose of getting the crown to release his father. Once his father was killed, his people recommended he be king in the north.

Calling your banners and staying at Moat Cailin doesn't bring his father back, marching south does.

"But as soon as he committed to holding the riverlands, the game was practically up."
No, he was winning until the Reach declared for Joffery.

"While I say Robb beelining to KL and blocking Tywin at Blackrush River on the Goldroad as the best chance, I don't say it's a good one. "
Again, look at where harrenhall is, look at were riverrun is. If he tries to march on Kings Landing, Tywin will get there a good month before he does. Tywin on the walls can defeat any army 10 times his size, the book says as much.

"Either choice Westerlands or Crownlands have daunting strategic problems for Robb. And since the book goes with the attack the Westerlands..."
No, the westerlands was a good choice. I stand by that.

"Joffery, the whole reason that this war is being fought would force Tywin at Blackwater Rush River anyways"
You've played the ck2 mod, and seen the show, but have you read the books? I doubt it based on what your saying. Even so, lets play multiplayer CK2, I play as the lannisters, you play as the the north, and you try your beeline strategy.

It will only work because:
1. Tywin can't hide behind the walls of Kings Landing
2. Stannis/Renly will ally with Robb in the siege.

"SPOILERS!!!!
Ends horribly for Robb
END of SPOILERS"
MASSIVE SPOILER FOR EPISODE 9 OF SEASON 3. I REPEAT I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT EVENTS THAT HAPPEN IN SEASON 3 EPISODE 9. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THAT EPISODE UNTIL IN PREMIERS IN A ON MAY 26TH THEN DON'T READ BELOW!
It ends horrible for Robb because the Freys rebel against him after he marries Jeyne Westerling (he was bethrothed to Roslin Frey in book 1), and he is killed by the Freys, not by the Lannisters. Also Roose Bolton intentionally had intentionally had 8000 men killed in 2 losses to Tarly forces, first at Duskendale and second at Ruby Ford. He did this intentionally because he wanted the north to have as few soldiers as possible for when he and the Freys rebelled.

He was winning the war until:
a) Edmure Tully ruins his plans by focing Tywin out of Harrenhall to retreat south.
b) He married Jeyne Westerling which caused the Freys and Boltons to betray him.

That's not winning the war, Robb had only defeated a part of the Lannister's forces while they had reserves and got the Tyrells and Dorne to join the war on their side while maintaining control of the gold mines, vital to finance the war effort for the Lannisters, and repulse Stannis at KL. Robb's forces were too small to have a chance at a long term occupation of the Crownlands or Westerlands, he had to defeat the Lannisters while Tywain was on his own. He had a very narrow window to win before the Lannisters consolidated and were practically unbeatable.

The multiplayer challenge, that's not even fair really because of you know my strategy already and their is no "Fog of War" between the Lannister's forces.

No, the reason Robb marched south was Robb wants revenge for his father. Robb didn't give a shit for Sansa like Catelyn did, unwilling to trade Jaime for Sansa. Which is arguably would have been a good trade as Robb could of used Sansa to wed her to Robert Arryn, securing an alliance with the Vale.

Fasces, this brings us back to my point from before. The marriage was the dumbest thing he could have done. How would you argue otherwise?

"Calling your banners and staying at Moat Cailin doesn't bring his father back, marching south does."

Cool! March south and bring back Ned! :p

Marrying Sansa to Robert Arryn doesn't do jack, alliance-wise. Mommy Dearest is in control there (as of Season Two) and she'll stop breastfeeding before she sends forces out of the Vale. Lysa is a Tully: Family, Duty, Screw Everything Up.

If Robb wanted to marry Sansa off in a match that brought swords, Garlan Tyrell or Quentyn Martell were better candidates.