This is one single weird school. How on earth does this have anything at all to do with the state of Arizona, obi?

Because these sort of things keep happening in Arizona.

Hence my list of all those OTHER incidents and policies in Arizona recently...

There's a social climate brewing down there, and I'd argue, with just one example of either the citizens of Arizona (here, a school), the government/policy, or both, that it's not a climate for the better, and is a rather hateful climate in the 21st century at that.

These kinds of things happen all over the place, though. You're just creating a selection effect.

I'm not talking about the rest, but this school thing.

I guess what I'm saying is -- I think you're doing EXACTLY what you dislike in (some) Arizonans. An illegal immigrant commits a crime, and people get all worked up about how illegal immigrants are all criminals. And you try to say, "Well, um, no, not really, look at these facts." But they won't have it, and, after all, quite a few crimes are happening in the news tied to illegal immigrants, so pretty soon they've convinced themselves that illegal immigrants are this dangerous threat.

Well, so it is with you and Arizonans. You're stereotyping and generalizing like mad, based on some news stories. How is this a better reasoning process when you do it than when those you criticize do it?

Re Arizona, a friend of mine was closely involved with the Sanctuary Movement in the 1980s, which was when church members facilitated the smuggling in of refugees from the Salvadoran civil war, because the US didn't recognize that conflict as worthy of granting refugee status, even though more than 75,000 were killed and many more were "disappeared." They would bring the refugees into the country from Mexico, take them to various churches, and hold press conferences to try to raise awareness of their plight. Then they would drive multiple vehicles off of the church property, making it impossible for the waiting INS agents to know which ones to stop.

My friend, a clergyman, was totally liberal, and still is, but after he was convicted of a felony for his role in that movement, he was transferred to a church near Nogales, on the Mexican border, where he learned the other side of the equation. So many thousands of immigrants stream across the border in that sector that ranches in the area were literally overrun with people walking through their properties, continually cutting fences, killing some of their cattle (to eat) and their barking dogs, and sometimes stealing things, from vehicles to food to the wash hung out on the lines. Many of the ranchers were sympathetic to the immigrants, let them get water, and even employed some of them, but the sheer numbers was overwhelming their ability to make a living. These were mostly family-owned ranches at that time.

He came to respect that plight of the ranchers as well as the plight of the immigrants. The simple fact is that Arizona is on the front lines, and bears the brunt of the federal government's inability to control our borders, so I understand why they want to be tough on illegal immigration.

grammar *sigh* That should have read "The sheer number (of immigrants) was...." rather than "The sheer numbers was...." lol.

@semck83:

Because I back up my "stereotypes" and "generalizations" with articles, facts, and actual events and policies.

It's not cherry-picking when it's a trend...
Or when award-winning authors have their books pulled for discussing Latino/American relations...
Or when racial profiling becomes part of the state policy...
Or when the state legislature pushes for a bill that not only is severely anti-feminist but violates civil liberties as well in favor of a religious bent when Church and State are supposed to be separate...

And now this.



So I'm merely plotting a trend based on the articles and facts...

I'm not making this up, after all...and again, I'm not cherry-picking, these are the issues that are taking place in Arizona (well, that and the futile efforts to keep a hockey team that no one wants and that should never have existed alive...but unless you want to count the Phoenix Coyotes...these are the news stories...I didn't pick and choose from them.)

@Mujus:

At the risk of starting another illegal immigration fight:

1. It may be technically "illegal," but when your family is starving because of a poor Mexican economy and you have a better shot at making money to feed them in America...but the immigration system is hopelessly outdated and botched--and let's be fair here, even those who outspoken against illegal immigration say the system needs to be reformed and badly, because it's just not working right now anywhere close to as well or as quickly as it should or must--and your options are cross a border in search for prosperity or wait due to a failed bureaucratic system that takes months if not years sometimes...

Which would you choose?

"Illegal" doesn't always equal "wrong," so I don't see the immigrants as being in the moral wrong, nor do I see the Arizonans as being in the moral right by opposing them...we're on the border here in California, too, and no one here suggested anything as ludicrous or offensive as a giant wall around the Border...

2. Arizona being "on the front lines" still doesn't excuse the abhorrent racial profiling going on down there.

3. Again--considering the fact the first American settlers didn't exactly proceed orderly into the Indian's land and give them the correct paperwork and all rather than, say, stream in unchecked looking for a better opportunity...

Can't really fault the Mexicans for doing the same, again, ESPECIALLY when the immigration system is inexcusably outdated and in desperate need of reform.

4. A LOT of these problems might be fixed if Arizona (and the US, for that matter) would consider Day Worker/Guest programs, to allow Mexican laborers to cross the Border each day to work for opportunity and pay they crave and rightfully seek (and, I might add, do so while working jobs and hours and under conditions not many other Americans would envy or desire) and then let them go home to families in Mexico at night; for those families right on the Border, that might work for both sides and both nations...

But Arizona and the US doesn't want to do it, so...

Obi, this story is anecdotal, about a single private school. Its evidential value to establish any trends about Arizona is zero. Period. Any attempt to use it as such bespeaks truly dreadful methodology; I suggest you desist from such attempts, therefore, while you still have any of the intellectual high ground from which you are so fond of peering down.

I wonder, did the team members decide not to play or did the team manager decide for them or was it the school principle/board/whatever who made this decision?

Whoever's decision it was, I think they're idiots, but I am minded of Eric Liddle, who long ago refused to run in the Olympics 100m race on principle, because it was held on a Sunday.

As an Arizonan, I always laugh at stuff like this. The rest of this country has such an image of racism and all that, but everyone I know that has come to visit from other parts of the country (for work purposes) are always very surprised at how things really are here. I could address most of these individually, and I will also admit that there are things that our state could be better at. But for the ethnic studies, I will give an example.

The ethnic studies was not a banned program. The state decided that it could be an elective, but it couldn't be used as the history credit for graduation, because they wanted to make sure students took US history. The only books that were taken off of the curriculum were books that advocated civil disobedience. These books were not banned. They were still available in the library, just not as part of the courses.

The proponents of the ethnic studies classes (which at the time were still available as electives) made a very loud public protest, having walkouts at school, disrupting board meetings, etc. They refused to take the classes if they didn't count as credits towards graduation, so the school district dropped them.

So to recap, no books were banned, they were always available. The classes were still originally available to take. If the students felt so strongly about wanting to learn about their culture (which I think is great, BTW), why couldn't they take it as an elective?

And if you want the feel about the original baseball story here, most of us think it is ridiculous, but we respect the right of the school's beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. Isn't that what the constitution is about?

Arizona is a shithole. Glad the good Christians flock to the side of the reactionaries, as per usual. The apologia for the ethnic studies ban is quite hilarious. Considering the fact that Arizona has been amping up racial tensions and divisions for 6+ years now, it is comical that they'd ban ethnic studies on the grounds that it 'sows division and hatred'. The people who proposed this ban unabashedly brag about how how are stopping "La Raza" whatever that is supposed to mean. They put out ads for their campaigns in which they tout these candidates as "one of us" (presumably meaning Anglo).

The anti-ethnic studies ban is based on total lies and disinformation, claiming that the Mexican American studies program promoted overthrowing the government and 'resentment'. Gee, I guess we should stop teaching about slavery and Jim Crow too, or make it an 'elective'. Good idea, right? Nevermind that Jim Crow segregation existed for Mexican-Americans in the Southwest too, and that before Brown v. Board there was Mendez v. Westminster.

"Well, so it is with you and Arizonans. You're stereotyping and generalizing like mad, based on some news stories. How is this a better reasoning process when you do it than when those you criticize do it?"

Oh no, are white Arizonans being *profiled*. Sacre bleu! The injustice!

"And if you want the feel about the original baseball story here, most of us think it is ridiculous, but we respect the right of the school's beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. Isn't that what the constitution is about?"

You defend the right to have beliefs so long as said beliefs are oppressive. Meanwhile you defend the decision to ban Chicano studies.

So enlighten me, which books were banned?

Critical Race Theory, 500 years of Chicano History in Pictures, Message to Atzlan, Pedagogy of the Oppressed, Rethinking Columbus - the next 500 years, Chicano: The History of the Mexican American Civil Rights Movement.

These books were confiscated, boxed up, and carted off.

Source?

Teachers were ordered to turn in any MAS books in their classrooms. So if they're not banned, why are they being carted from the schools?

Also, do you also "laugh" at the fact that students who walked out in protest of the banning of MAS were punished with mandatory janitorial duties? Is that hilarious to you?

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/opt-in/120119.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/18/arizona-banned-mexican-american-books

The school district's excuse is that they're not 'banned', but boxed & stored and not able to be used or viewed during school. Oh well, I guess that's good enough hairsplitting for you, right?

http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/2012/01/teaching-critical-thinking-in-arizona.html

Here's video clips and plenty of documentary evidence of the book seizures.

They were taken out of the classroom, that is true. It happened in front of the students, that is also true, and I think that part was the crappy thing to do. However, they are still available in the library.

The students skipped school and were warned not to do it. They got punished for it. No, I don't have a problem with it, just as I don't have a problem with them standing up for what they believe in. We all have the right to stand up for what we believe in, but we also have to understand that there are consequences for our actions. Just like the baseball story, the school stood up for what they believed in, and it cost them a chance at the title.

I've already said that I think the students have the right to study hispanic culture. However, as someone who is living in the middle of this "firestorm", and knows several people on both sides of the story, I know that the situation isn't exactly as it is portrayed in the media. There is no black and white, there is a lot of grey. So while I am not actually "laughing" (I agree, poor choice of words), I do know that everyone likes to jump on my state, and most of the time they are misinformed.

See, I know you want to keep repeating the school district's press release. But here's the thing, these books are not made available in the libraries, and since teachers can't even mention the books in their classrooms without risking their job it is a wonder how these kids will ever even find out about them.

http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2012/02/21/tucson-school-board-upholding-ban-on-books-discussing-race-and-oppression/


Not only that, they can't use other books to talk about racial oppression either. An inquiry was made as to whether they could Shakespeare's Tempest, the Tucson School district said no.

It's funny that you preach about the consequences of actions and yet we're all supposed to feel sorry for Arizona that their reputation has taken a nose dive because your politicians that you keep electing decide to act like racist jackasses. Cry me a river. So it's bad for students to learn about the struggles of their own people but it's ok for them to do janitorial work as punishment for protesting. I guess Chicano people are 'learning their place' in Arizona's apartheid state. Clean toilets, pick our tomatoes, and shut your mouth.

I'm not saying that anyone should feel sorry for us. And I don't disagree that some of our politicians act like idiots. Unfortunately, these guys are the ones that get all the publicity, even though they are a small number. And since we elected them in the first place, then yes, those are the consequences that we get.

Maybe you were an ideal student, but I skipped school and got caught once. I had to spend all day Saturday cleaning at the school as my punishment. I guess you could consider that janitorial work. Is that racist?

I am never going to be able to convince you otherwise, so I will just stay here in my apartheid state, cleaning toilets, picking tomatoes, and I'll keep my mouth shut. I am hispanic, so that must be my place here. At least that's what everyone outside of Arizona keeps telling me.

I guess a little solidarity is too much to ask. Keep prattling on about how misunderstood Arizona is.

@Umbrella- I applaud your efforts to stand up for your state, unfortunately some people here are too stuck in there ways to listen.

*their, sorry about that.