So I really DO feel Education is key...

And I'll add this, just for Putin:

My Communist theatre professor said the other day that she was FOR one social class and total equality...

But that not everyone should be taught to read because...I guess if it's too hard, they should be made to do other tasks and never be taught to even read the ballot boxes they'd be checking or understand the debate they'd need to hear to vote intelligently...

But doctor or duster, even if they are deprived of basic education, such as how to read...

All are equal.

Agree with her?

If so.......how does THAT work??? That sounds horrific to me...
If NOT...what page in the Manifesto did she misread, and how do you see things?

+1 SD...? LOL

I have never met a single communist, or person for that matter (except maybe Fasces, I'm not sure), who has said that some people should not be taught to read. You teacher is an idiot IMO.

Yeah, in my experience there is a subset of communists who are communists because they like to shock people with their opinions, and those rarely stop there. They have all kinds of wild ideas. (I knew one who argued for the death penalty for speeding violations).

Considering the fact that no force on earth improved literacy as much or as fast as communist governments, yeah I'd say that's rather odd.

Anyway, my answer is capitalism.

In her (very minimal) defense, I think she might have meant folks don't need to be taught to read extensively...or that people shouldn't receive less pay or be treated as any less accomplished if they can't read, and that really, only very basic reading is needed, like knowing the vowel sounds and consonants and such...

But even then...well, if all you know are mono-syllable words, you don't seem to be adequately prepared to make decisions on whether to vote for a war or to increase spending or on civil rights issues and so on...and I can't reconcile a mono-syllabic janitor being viewed with as much prestige and paid as much as a Pulitzer-winning journalist or a genetic engineer...

So yeah--she might have meant it nicer (she's really rather nice in person) but it's still garbage.

@semck83:

Death penalty for speeders?! :O WHY?????

That MIGHT just be the stupidest thing I've heard all week (after the "don't have to read" bit.)

@Putin:

...

'splain your "Communism=more literacy" position, please...

I'm not saying it can't be true...

But I just don't think of literacy being totally hinging on capitalism vs. communism, but rather, just what educational system is in place in ANY kind of government, save, perhaps, a a totalitarian one...I imagine literacy there would be diminished even if you were able to hire Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates back from the dead.

The biggest threat to liberty (I assume by this you mean the freedom to do what you want) is security.

You want to be safe, have the future assured for you ahead of time, you need to give someone the power to do that for you and your children. And, with that power, they very well may make you safe, but not safe from they that hold the new-found power. And, of course, power corrupts. Also, if you want to have total safety, you have to give the power-holder total power, which corrupts totally.

Of course, the question could be posed the other way: the biggest threat to security is liberty. Think: if we had a completely free society without any restrictions at all, we would have no government, and total chaos would ensue.

And as a capitalist...

How is PURE capitalism--ie, just the idea itself, not the application today in the US or other capitalist nations--a threat to liberty?

"I want a new cow."
"I want a new horse."
"I want a new house."
"But I can't drag my cow to the market to barter with it."
"Nor can I drag my old horse!"
"Or my HOUSE! Oh, my!"
"Wouldn't it be great if these things had certain valeus attached to them?"
"Yeah!"
"Then you could exchange goods or services for a non-perishable, easy-to-carry form of value you could exchange later for whatever you wanted without having to barter!"

Barest bones of capital there...

How does THAT threaten liberty?

@Putin, of course Communist regimes were eager to increase literacy. How else do you effectively spread lies amongst millions. By the way the fact that so many books critical of communism and praising western economies says enough about the genuine communist intentions. Allow me to list Putin33 on the list of threads to liberty next to obiwan^2

*threats to liberty? ;)

"western economies were forbidden says"

Lol yeah that too thanks working on a cell phone and being illiterate myself. Thanks for that

Obi's snobbery is insufferable.

In response to your queries.

1 - I don't deal with "purities", I deal in the real world. Real world capitalism is a threat to liberty, and more and more people are realizing it. And capital entails more than exchange via money, it involves private ownership of the means of production. Money is not the same as capital. Democracy is not compatible with capitalism. Money controls elections, and they become contests between millionaires and billionaires for which sector of capital is going to prevail over what other sector of capital. Welfare statism is not sustainable with capitalism, inevitably the reformist gains will be annihilated once a state comes under competitive pressures. Capital is barbaric in its use of police powers to repress the forces that don't benefit from it (the Oakland razing of the OWS encampment was done for the benefit of big real estate developers). Capital will sabotage the livelihoods of people in order to get its way, as we've seen. Capitalism is the source of war & imperialism (combined with ethnic rivalries, but still, the competition over control of markets and resources is attached to that).

2 - Literacy. Our abysmal education system and high illiteracy despite being the richest country in the world is a testament to capitalism's defects in the realm of education. So too is the fact that third world countries with market economies have failed in this department. Contrast that with the governance of a small, impoverished state like Kerala. Kerala has very low average standard of living, yet near universal literacy. Guess who governs Kerala? The Communist Party. They've ruled it for decades. Cuba's literacy program won awards. Chinese literacy has grown by leaps and bounds. One thing none of you anti-communists can say about communist countries, is their lack of emphasis on the importance of literacy and education. All communist governments bequeathed to their reactionary successors a population of entirely educated and literate people. And that wasn't the case when they first came to power.

"@Putin, of course Communist regimes were eager to increase literacy. How else do you effectively spread lies amongst millions."

Interesting. I suppose the fact that billionaires control the capitalist media means that critical reports are routinely made about the media's capitalist puppet masters. That must be why the Murdoch papers were oh so quick to report on the scandal involving their boss. That must be why CNBC and other similar "business news channels" engage in hardball interviews whenever corporate fat cats are invited on those programs. That must be why the business news channels were telling people to invest in Bear Stearns when the thing was about to implode. Capitalist media is indeed, "fair and balanced", especially when it comes to its views of communist countries right? Look at all those books in the capitalist press which are praising the achievements of the communist countries. Look at the reports of Cuba's heroic efforts in helping the Haitians during the earthquake, when the Americans were sending the damned marines and restricting flights into the country. Oh wait, they don't exist.

Now, please go back to reading your "fair and balanced" black book of communism and leave the redbaiting to people who can do it properly.

@obiwan, I could never really figure that he had any reason for it except to be extreme. His claimed reasoning was that disobeying the state was the only crime, and any disobedience against the state was equal.
I actually talked him out of that one, I should add, though not by appealling to common sense like you might think.

"Obi's snobbery is insufferable."
Takes one to know one.

Anyway, if there's anyone who doesn't live in the real world it's you. You split up the world in extremes of capitalism and communism and then denounce the former. I hate to bring it up all the time, but what about my country (Holland)? Not only am I literate, but I am literate in several languages and because I live in both a democracy and a capitalist state I have access to virtually all information and goods that go around in the world.

"Cuba's literacy program has won awards". Yeah bro, that's because we in Europe don't need literacy programs, our capitalist governments ensured that years and years ago. What pathetic kind of state wins literacy awards in these days?

Here's the thing about people claiming to be communists. You can't just say you're a communist and be one. There are three criteria.

1 - Accept the party program
2 - Pay dues
3 - Participate in party organization (as in attend meetings and do party work)

Unless your anecdotal "communist" friends do these things, the label communist is rather meaningless. The "kill the speeders" guy sounds like a provocateur, maybe he's a cop trying to get people to say inflammatory things.

A note on "not everyone should be taught to read."
Fact: There exist people who are not capable of learning to read.
Thus not everyone needs to be taught to read.
That doesn't stop the from being equal. Equal in this case clearly does not mean identical.

"Not only am I literate, but I am literate in several languages and because I live in both a democracy and a capitalist state I have access to virtually all information and goods that go around in the world."

Good for you. You can brag about how you live in a rich, successful capitalist democracy all you'd like and ridicule the idea of a poor, formerly colonized country going from 35% literacy to 90%+ literacy in a couple of years. I think most thinking people realize that different countries face different conditions. The Netherlands had hundreds of years of independent development in order to achieve their wealth, prosperity and education. Much of their wealth came through the plundering of the resources of other countries like Indonesia. Congrats, "bro", you're rich and educated because your country exploited and colonized others. You left Indonesia an absolute mess and then want to brag that your country has been "literate for years and years". Similar to Indonesia, Cuba faced hundreds of years of colonial oppression at the hands of the Spanish and then the Americans. Upon ridding itself of the capitalist yoke, it quickly embarked on an amazing transformation into a fully literate state in record time. No capitalist country could ever dream of achieving that.

Now your country is becoming a basketcase of anti-immigrant hysteria. A once proud and open society is a shell of its former self. The fact that Geert Wilders props up your government is an absolute disgrace, and speaks to the bleak prospects of liberal democracy in the Netherlands.

Obi has always had this absurd notion that communism meant absolute equality in pay. That was never advocated by anyone and I've had this discussion with him numerous times and he still uses this straw man over and over again.

@Putin, while the cop idea is a little unbelievable, the rest of what you said was more or less what I was suggesting.

@Putin, yeah that's why we are so rich. It's our secret stock of Indonesian spices and bananas that still props up our economy today. You gotta be kidding.

Anti-immigrant hysteria? Where is the hysteria? Last time I checked people were quietly minding their own capitalist business. The way in which Mr. Wilders now supports the government by supplying the parliamentary majority necessary without allowing him to participate in that same government I consider a victory for liberal democracy in my country. It means we can trick idiots like Wilders into thinking they have power while they don't.

But let's not derail the thread. I agree with Obi, the greatest threat to liberty is education, and I also agree with Putin that allowing the super rich to control the media can be a threat to education. That's why we have public channels 1, 2 and 3 in Holland, to counterbalance the commercials a bit. You get a pretty balanced picture that way, but of course it will never be as balanced as the Cuban state media.

"to liberty is lack of education". I should really get more sleep. :)

I wasn't talking about today. Surely you realize that the past affects the present, and that the Netherlands didn't just fall from the sky this rich, happy, democratic utopia you make it out to be. The extraction of coffee, tea, sugar, indigo, and spices which massive Dutch landowners and exporters extracted from Indonesia certainly helped Dutch development for 350 years. Shockingly, despite your braggadocio about the wonderful rich, capitalist, educated Netherlands, Dutch rule brought Indonesians 93% illiteracy and a total absence of a professional class of any kind. Few colonized economies were controlled as completely as NEI.

As for Wilders not having any power, then I guess it's worse than I thought. The Dutch mainstream parties proposed these immigration restrictions and cut immigration by 30% because they simply wanted to.

I voted for one of the parties that wanted to cut immigration and here's why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

Even our Carribean islands are overpopulated. Look at how many countries are in the top 30 with +10 million residents (in other words, that are not simply city states that have high population densities by default). Not so many.

But I believe if you want to pursue this discussion you should open a new thread. I personally don't want to continue it. You're a snob. "...leave the redbaiting to people who can do it properly."

Overpopulation is a huge threat to liberty as it takes a country ever further away from self sufficiency. This makes a nation take a naturally imperialistic slant on life. International trade is a great thing when the countries with power are doing well, but if such a country finds itself in a position where it desperately needs resources to avoid a severe drop in quality of life, and the rest of the world simply isn't selling, then the proverbial will hit the fan with gusto.

The current spat of minor wars we are currently witnessing, with maintaining a healthy oil trade as at least part of their motivation, are little more than the cartoon before the main feature.

I believe Octavious points out a valid point here. Overpopulation is definitely a big threat to liberty, we are already scrambling for resources world wide.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Consumerism, is the biggest threat to liberty. People getting caught up in the work, spend, sleep. Rinse repeat. Cyclical nature. Of buying because they are told its important by advertising. Spending beyond there means, and working to get more stuff that doesn't matter.

Because to me, liberty is living a fulfilling life.

And these people are trapped in what is possibly the least fulfilling life. The glorification of crap.

Education can be a tool to bring about tyranny. The modern infatuation with structuralism and analytical theories have the world debating semantics over substance. If we can debate what "liberty" actually is, then we lose the effort to actually pursue it. The worlds greatest rise in liberty occurred during the Romantics, so I would say that a loss of imagination and compassion are the biggest threat to liberty. Sleep William Blake.

@Spell + inf for that second part.

But doesn't education also involve teaching each other about the Romantics and Blake?

Consumerism is also a lack of education. A man can acquire two things in life: money and knowledge. He better choose the latter.