To be more exact: he can just fuck off. I don't care where just as long as he keeps quiet.

In comparison to his other crimes and his church's other ills, this is positively lilliputian, however it does show that contemptible view of the world that he has displayed elsewhere before.

Are you marching this weekend? I can't, because of work, but I'd have liked to.

The amusing thing from my point of view is that if the pope *really* thought athiests were nazis, he wouldn't have said a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic Church didn't say diddly about the crimes of the Nazis until after they were out of power.

In other words, the RCC only bitches about people they either have no influence over or who cannot hurt them. How very... Politically correct

I should be offended, but its the pope...like I give a phuck what that shill says.
Also, tax all churches (and non-profits) and this crap will take care of its self.

@HopsyTurvy: no, I live in The Netherlands so it's not so easy.

@Stratagos: good point.

I respect the beliefs of Catholics and feel sorry for them that the hierarchy of their church is so self-serving.

From the article: "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

I'd say he's meaning well but using a straw man argument, as if 'secular agressors' do not have morals.

Dear Pope,

On behalf of the diplomacy community of the UK, I'd like to extend a very warm welcome to you and your entourage. I'm not going to complain about the cost to the tax payer and sincerely hope that the 6 million or so Catholics in the UK are uplifted by your visit.

I'd like to apologise for any discrimination that your followers have suffered either at the hands of the state or at the hands of my fellow citizens. I'd also like to thank your organisation for all the good work they have done, and continue to do, with regard to education.

I would also like to mention that we do not believe that any atrocities that people have planned and/or executed in the UK in the name of Catholicism from Guy Forkes to the IRA had anything to do with your religion, they were merely extremism using religion to advance their cause.

We welcome your recent comments about homosexuality, woman, atheists, nazis, etc and rejoice that you are able to express your views no matter how unpalitable they are to some people.

We recognise that some priests used your organisation to advance their own ends and appreciate that your organisation together with many other organisations are improving their policies and procedures in dealing with rouge employees.

Yours faithfully

Maniac
(Not so) aggressive atheist.

PS - thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to check up on webdiplomacy forum pages.

rouge employees=cardinals?

@Maniac: "On behalf of the diplomacy community of the UK, I'd like to extend a very warm welcome to you and your entourage."

You might like to but it is clear that you are not speaking for all members of the UK diplomacy community. Feel free to speak for yourself.

Good point stratagos, I hadn't thought of that.

I have to say I think it's a bit much coming to a country and then criticizing the people there.. but we'll have to wait and see whether the people he's mainly speaking to are won over by that sort of thing

I do also realize that people can often get a little hysterical over papal speeches, so this might be overblown (I'll be damned if I'm reading his speech to find out)

To be honest, what he says will for me always pale in comparison to what he did regarding the cover-up of child rape.

The upper ecclesiasts of the Roman Catholic Church have consistently shown themselves to be wildly divorced from reality, heinous in thier actions, and disgusting in thier moral hypocrisy.

Are we honestly surprised here folks?

hopsyturvy +1

@TGM -- I agree wholeheartedly. As a (Protestant) Christian myself, I find the Papacy to be antithetical to the Christian purpose. Accumulation of wealth, protection of the status quo, lobbying for influence and power, protection of wrongdoers for fear of criticism of your institution -- how exactly has the Church changed since 1517?

Cardinal Ratzinger/the Bishop of Rome/False Heir to St. Peter can toss off. And, seriously, I'm glad I'm a Baptist, because Ecumenism = Death, at least so long as the Roman Church is promoting it.

People actually care what the pope says?

@TGM "To be honest, what he says will for me always pale in comparison to what he did regarding the cover-up of child rape."

I completely agree that the church's behaviour on child abuse is far worse than what he said. However, I have a feeling that he said it as a way of deflecting criticism on that subject.

The thing is, equating atheism with Nazism is pretty common. (I speak from experience as an atheist who frequently comes across this argument). More generally, a related argument is that atheism is just as dogmatic and fanatical as religion.

The problem with these arguments, though, is that atheism is actually completely devoid of content. As Sam Harris points out, it is really a word we do not need- Much in the same way we have no word for people who don't believe in astrology, or ufo's, or Artemis. The term "atheist" implies a belief in something whereas it really just represents a rational, modern person who is skeptical of faith-based claims based on little or poor evidence.
So, when turning one's gaze to the Nazis, one has to question whether the atrocities they committed really occurred because the German population became too rational. Were the Nazi's so skeptical of unsubstantiated fact-claims that they built the gas chambers? I might need to brush up on my history, but I don't think so. The problem with Nazi Germany (and other supposedly "atheist" states like the USSR or North Korea) is that they are dominated by other dogmas run amok. These dogmas aren't religion, but the real problem with them is that they behave too much like religions. These ideologies and dogmas are accepted by huge swaths of unquestioning masses without being adequately questioned or critiqued.
So, I propose that all "atheism" really is is an attempt to be rational and critical. I don't think any society has ever suffered because those qualities became too widespread.

DaveH +1

@FS "Are we honestly surprised here folks?"

On previous form: no, but I keep hoping that these guys will get the picture.

@DaveH

Wow, I have not encountered that argument myself.

+1 for your analysis of falacy.

@DaveH isn't the real sticking point of that argument when 'they' say that the insistence on rationality is a dogma in itself? Try arguing your way out of that one rationally - it's like talking to someone with their fingers in their ears going 'la la la, i'm not listening'

See for example feminist postmodern critiques of the scientific method

Wait, I'm confused...I thought this pope *was* a Nazi? Does that make him an atheist? What implications would that have on the Catholic Church if the pope was an atheist?

@ DaveH "we have no word for people who don't believe in astrology, or ufo's, or Artemis."

You should do more research. People who don't believe in UFOs are called Identifiers; you are correct that there isn't a collective noun for Artemis deniers; people who don't believe in astrology are Cancercuspleos as most none believers are usually cancerians on the cusp with Leo..

DaveH relates a very good point. Sam Harris is probably one of my absolute favourite atheists (who actually speaks and is known for atheism that is). The late Carl Sagan is also well well worth listening to, his last ever interview is on youtube.

lol @identifiers

@ hopsy: i've been there. i feel your pain.
@ maniac: that's interesting- i did not know that. but i still think the general point stands.
@ ghost: i love that guy. he makes me swoon. another cool... i don't know what to call him exactly, maybe "lecturer," is qualiasoup on youtube. he's not an atheist per se, but he does a series of animations on related topics. he's definitely worth checking out.

From reading the above comments, it appears that, not terribly surprisingly, the pope's comments have been read without a full understanding of the complete matter at hand. In particular for those of us in the West (i.e. Europe and North America, from where I assume most everyone commenting lives), we have all been influenced by Christian thought. As a result, most atheists as it were are rather "Christian-flavored" atheists (whether they believe it or not) and they tend to, for the most part (with a few notable and pretty much the same exceptions), agree with Christian moral teaching, like, for instance, that all human life is valuable (thus our focus on charity through personal or governmental means) and that murder, rape, theft, etc. are wrong. However, given that atheism is "devoid of content" as DaveH pointed out, that void can be filled by a lot of different things. In the West, it is usually filled, as I explained above, by a Christian-flavored world/moral view because that is the still somewhat dominant culture. However, it is not necessary that this be what fills the void. Rather, what fills the void can be something that looks a lot more like Nazism, or Lenin/Stalin style communism, or pretty much anything else.

What the pope is trying to say, then, is that atheism (given its lack of any firm moral grounding) has a strong potential, in some cases, to lead to these problems because it is an empty cup that can be filled by either good or evil, and sometimes it gets filled by evil. It is then, only by accepting Christ and living as He (Christ) teaches, that we can achieve salvation (the more "religious" component of Catholicism) but also create a better world (i.e. through charity, being good, etc.).

Since nobody seems to have mentioned it, I'd like to do away with the fallacy that the Nazis were in any way atheists trying to do away with the idea of God. They were Christians themselves. It takes the most cursory of examinations to recognize this. And guess which denomination the Third Reich favored? Yeah... Try out an image search of "nazi catholic" on Google and you'll find a great deal.