Should every engineer in the US be fired because the Columbia space shuttle exploded?

I never said that anyone should be fired.

Should the engineers responsible for the failed parts that caused the Columbia to explode be able to demand, by Federal mandate, a wage, regardless of the quality of their work?

If a person can't do their job, they should be fired; minimum wage shouldn't be lowered for all employees because a few people are incompetent.

They should be fired, I'll agree. But if you thinks the leftists are marching in the streets now because Debbie only gets $7.35/hr for failing to do the simplest task, imagine in McDonalds and Burger King start firing the Debbie's because they can't do this: Document that list of items I spoke to you in a slow, clear voice, and which I verified when you read back to me... and then give me those items in a bag, hot and hopefully with a bun centered on top of a piece of meat.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

And yet even though *twice* today I had an order read back to me and confirmed, the actual receipt showed a different list of items...which truly boggles my mind -- apparently when you order a "meal" it doesn't include fired anymore...I guess????.

So I don't see why a company should be allowed to pay an employee $5 an hour if they can find someone to work for that, and then....oh, I don't know...give them the incentive of "If you work hard, and document lists of food correctly....we'll give you a raise" (I'll bet that's how YOUR job works, abge...if little abge comes to work on time, works hard, and produces quality work, he'll get a raise....OR....little abge will take his new-found skill and market them to ANOTHER employer and say, "If you want me...because I already know how to make a list and put shit in a bag...you'll pay me $6/hr...more than my last job" And thus little abge is on his way to starting a career with a good work ethic.

It's always funny how someone professional, who stands on their own two feet and thinks his/her own success should and *will* be dependent on hard work, can look at another group of people and think they are incapable of duplicating your own success story.

It's arrogance. you don't think the minimum wage people are capable of working hard and improving themselves. You don't think they are capable of ambition, or learning skills and marketing themselves, and thus you think they need to be provided some minimum wage *not* based on skills and ability, but based upon their ability to breath.

Mind boggling...

So

Correction: I don't see why a company SHOULDN'T be allowed to pay $5...

Anyway --- too late for me for this. Just wanted to vent on the incompetence of the Minimum Wage workers I frequently encounter. And make no mistake...tonight two for two screw-ups by our finest minimum wage workers is *by no means* an aberration.

It is the consistent norm....implying that finding replacement workers for these shmucks (should you fire them) is pointless, and it seems the entire array of youth workers are collective are incompetent...<sigh.>

Have a nice night. And remember: Check you order twice before you leave should you venture out for a late night snack. Just sayin'...

Do you forget that humans can make mistakes? Do you misunderstand the way organizations work?

When you pay someone the "minimum wage" do you really expect initiativeand conscientiousness from them? Should you not consider if maybe the managers are paid too much at this fast food restaurant?

You speak often about how you do shit all at work.You have many times commented that you spend your days on this website and largely wasting your employers money? Does this little tirade not make you a complete hypocrite?

Sometimes people fuck up. Sometimes you get the brunt of the outcome. Is complaining about cold fries really worth your time? Grow up, move on and get a life.

@Krellin:
Did you go back and complain?
Did you demand to see the manager rather than ranting at poor old underpaid, overworked *Debbie?
Did you demand that Debbie be fired?
Did you complain to head-office demand that the manager be fired for failing to train Debbie correctly before releasing her onto the unsuspecting customers?

Or did you just leave it so Debbie/her manager will never know that she made a mistake and so won't have the opportunity to learn by it?

Or was it that you placed your order then waited impatiently (because you had a long journey ahead of you) while it was constructed but then, when Debbie called out "Big Mac NO fries" you just grabbed the bag without noticing that she had clearly enunciated someone else's order; then, when you found it wasn't your order at all you blamed poor Debbie for your own stupidity?

*-"Debbie"? Were you in/near Dallas?

I'm not convinced that krellin's experiences are an indication that we should lower the minimum wage. I think that, perhaps, if his experiences are representative of *all* minimum wage workers (and this has yet to be proved), then this is an argument to change it in some way. But that doesn't necessarily mean we should lower it.

I take it as given that krellin thinks that wages should be proportional to output. A particular worker will get Y amount of money for X amount of effort, and an increase in Y should beget an increase in X, or otherwise not occur at all. Here, minimum wage mandates a given Y and he is not seeing the rise in X that he expects. Thus, minimum wage workers do not deserve the amount they are paid!

There are a number of problems with this reasoning, chief among which is that money is not the only incentive that people react to, and people react individually. A work environment, relationship with colleagues, hours, tasks, etc. all contribute to how much people want to work, and how much effort they are willing to put into their job. Furthermore, because people react individually, not all these variables have the same effect on a given person.

The second problem is that, if we hold all the above non-monetary incentives equal, I think you'll find that the relationship between wages and effort is bi-directional. If a worker perceives the job (s)he is doing to be worth more than the wages (s)he is being paid, then (s)he is unlikely to put as much effort as (s)he otherwise would. Take for example mopping the floors at a fast food restaurant. If a worker is being paid $4/hour to do so, but thinks it's worth (say) $5/hour, (s)he will only put in $4/hour worth of effort. What's the point in doing all that extra if you're only going to be compensated for a given minimum level?

Now, that's obviously a work ethic problem, but let's face it: minimum wage jobs are (usually) no fun, and it's not like putting in that extra effort to mop the floors is going to make a tangible difference in anyone's life. If we let all the non-monetary incentives become variable again, then we can see a compounding effect on effort. If my boss is a jerk and I'm being underpaid, do you think I'm going to go the extra mile? Do you think I'll even go the required miles?

If, however, we raise wages to the point where the perceived value of the work and the compensation are (roughly) equal, I bet that you'll have workers doing their very best (all else being equal, of course). This is, naturally, speculation, and I could be wrong. But the fact that I can draw a different plausible conclusion from krellin's evidence means that a decrease in the minimum wage is not a necessary consequence of his anecdotal evidence.

What is not in question, though, is that if his two-meal sample is representative of the population, there is a problem with the minimum wage. But it doesn't logically follow that from a problem, we should go in a given direction.

So, krellin's experiences are not an indication that we should lower the minimum wage. The reasons for this are (a) there are non-monetary reasons that he could have received poor service, (b) if his experiences are representative of all minimum wage workers, while there is reason to believe there is a problem with the amount given in the minimum wage, we don't have any reason to move it in any given direction without further study.

And we're all taking Krellin's word for it that he actually *did* correctly place the order/s and listen while they were read back.
Just sayin'

Krellin your life is so saaaaaad.

Perhaps the fact that they don't care is a sign that they're not being paid enough, rather than too much?

I need some earth moved, probably about 12 to 15 tonnes,
on my property & those greedy earthmovers gave me an eye watering quotation
Still there seem to be more than a few who "theoretically" deplore the insolent nature of labourers who want a minimum wage.
It's strictly shovel & wheel barrow stuff in the caress of an Ausrtalian summer sun, so we'll have none of that nonsense about shade and provision of cool water
Remuneration of offer: $Aus One Dollar per tonne of earth moved & bowl of stale rice & bit of dried fish costs 50 cents from my "company store" & hire of shovel & wheelbarrow is 50 cents each per day

Won't it be fun to see Krellin & Putin actively demonstrating that their political views are
more than propoganda aimed at various scapegoat groups, but instead are genuinely held beliefs that apply first to themselves.

and after they've finshed digging & sweating
then I'd like a shrubbery with a little white picket fence
and one, no two, no THREE moss rocks.......

MM - go hire a bobcat from Kenn's .... so much more fun

before I consider your offer, is it -
a/ inclusive or exclusive of superannuation?
b/ gross or net of tax?
c/ workers compensation paid?
d/ are the shovel and wheelbarrow compliant with Australian Standards?
e/ is the "company store" compliant with your local council health regulations?
f/ what is the moisture content and retained volume of water per tonne?
g/ is the earth certified free from fire ants, legionella bacteria, and/or anthrax spores?
h/ is the land subject to a Native Title Claim?
i/ are there any mineral or energy exploration licences covering the land?

Dearest Nudge
any successful applicant is acting as a contractor, so they, not me, are responsible for
their own tax liabilities, super, health cover & insurances etc
yes the wheel barrow & shovel meet Australian standards
g caveat emptor --"let the buyer, or in this case the labourer, beware"
No Native Title exists, a Torrens Title for land extinguishes any Native Title Claim, the High Court of Australia has made this clear, so all those scaremongering alarmists who thought, and still think, that recognising Aboriginal Native Title will endanger the property rights of persons holding Torrens Titles of Land Ownership have failed to understand the quite clear judgement(s) of the High Court of Australia.
i -- no

I am confident that all those reactionaries who despise government intervention in the market place will soon be lining up to offer their services, after all they are persons who hold their beliefs profoundly, and apply their principles to themselves first and foremost.
They are NOT (?) a bunch of hypocritical polemicists who merely advocate for others what they would not do themselves

ironically I am a labor hire contractor, but I think I will decline your offer.

can you find a few top quality "top order batsmen" ???
after Day 2 at the MCG.......
the way Sports persons are remunerated is a classic example of the way Capitalism works, reward has little to do with "worth to society", fairness or equity.
The ability to generate profit largely determines reward, so one sports person can win Olympic Gold medals in a relatively unknown, not shown on tv type sport, another can build a celebrity sports profile in another well publicised but not necesarily Olympic recognised sport, then use that to endorse advertisements for cars, sliced bread, internet gambling, sports products, soap powder etc and reap huge rewards

So kkkrellin blames the slaves does he? Big surprise. Those incompetent min. wage workers, if full time, SPEND MOST OF THEIR LIVES at their poverty wage jobs. It's the employers' responsibility to get the most out of their workers. Blame billions of dollars in profits annually McDonald's for their chronically underperforming workers. You're only going to get so much out of slaves. Wages need to be above the poverty line.

Actually, McD's has some of the best workers in the business. I sent a compliment the other day to McD corporate on how good the folks at my local one are. It's a 24/7 (except after 8pm Christmas Eve when I really was jonesing for a 20 piece and Christmas Day when I was still jonesing for a 20 piece) and they are always great. Prompt and friendly, accurate, and even know the tricks to getting me the best price (don't order steak egg and chees McMuffin hold the egg for instance, instead order steak biscuit, sub muffin add cheese. It's cheaper).

Anyhow, long story short, my McD's trains their minions well and I appreciate that, so I tell corporate and they tell the manager and the manager tell the employees and sends me cards for free medium value meals. :-)

And yes, I eat way too much McD's, especially when the McRib is for sale.

Last time I was in McDonalds the staff were busy discussing the limitations of Marxist philosophy and the relative merits of capitalism. It came as something of a surprise.

That don't matter much to me as long as I get my McRib... <grin>

Laughing at all the leftist lapdogs in here that are either:
1. Going to have a cold, hard slap in the face someday when they think, as Goldie to moronically suggested, that they won't work harded *until* they get a raise. (What a mornon...)

or

2. Will run a business and give unmerited raises someday out of compassion, instead of through merit, and watch their business fail because their shitty workers don't give a shit.

I wonder, do all you silly libtards demand a Minimum Grade Requirement on your schoolwork? If teacher doesn't give everyone in class as least a "C" on every test do you whiny little bitches walk out of school?

Morons....the whole lot of you.

20-piece with some barbecue sauce, that's the shit right there.

Goldie is such a mormon...

krellin, I see your bet and I raise you. Abolish the federal minimum wage.

Germany does rather well without a minimum wage, and isn't noted for its poverty levels.

Germany is a welfare state.