It's my favorite gunboat country. Gunboat often comes down to idiots going for easy scs, not having easy scs to go for let's you be a real wheeler dealer

It's a bit like Austria. If you can survive til the last five you're actually in a really good endgame position because your builds occur in central locations.

Any specific strategies?

I always feel a bit aimless when I've drawn the green pieces (in gunboat or otherwise). So I want to work through a couple ideas related to the Italian opening and general strategy.

It seems like the "standard", or at least quite common, Italian gunboat opening is just to do something like:
rom-apu, nap-ion, ven hold (or S tri)
which is friendly but somewhat cautious toward Austria and leaves some options slanting toward the east, but is most likely followed up in the fall with the convoy to Tunis (provided that Austria has not opened a heavy position against Venice).

With an opening like this, I feel that my general line of thinking is to play toward resolving the AIT triangle and mostly ignoring the west, while hopefully France is tied up resolving the EFG triangle. Thus, the aim would be to either work with Austria and aiming at Turkey, or going after Austria first, depending on which path appears more profitable in the long-term and based on how Russia and others have slanted in their openings. This is, of course, the crucial decision in this eastward facing opening and sets the tone of the entire Italian game. Working with Austria in a Lepanto-like attack against Turkey seems to often lead to slow development while Austria becomes the more powerful partner. This leads me to think that a relatively early but well-timed stab on Austria or just opting for attacking from 1902 is often the better option. An interesting idea for attacking Austria in 1902 is to order ven-tyr in fall of 1901 to allow for the build A ven and an immediate attack in 1902 while maybe also attempting the convoy tun-alb.

I was wondering how other players approach the Italian opening and evaluate some of these decisions. Specifically, I also really interested in thoughts that aim for early influence and expansion toward the west, since my Italian thinking seems overly dominated by the eastern game. How does one work an early attack against France? When is this a viable strategy? How does one play Italy as a strong central power that best exploits the ability to influence east and west?

@Santa, I would love to hear more about your ideas toward playing Italy in a gunboat.

The problems with going after Austria are two:

First, it can easily lead to an Austrian collapse which sucks R/T armies into the vacuum leaving Italy with TRI only and a hostile opposing force.

Second, even when Russia is distracted elsewhere and it is well-timed, it puts Italy face to face against a Turkey with few options other than to push the attack. If Russia is happy to focus elsewhere, only Italy has to be worried about an opportunistic neighbor and a two-front war.

@Jamie, the trouble is that getting to the end game in a strong position is a prerequisite to being able to leverage the advantage of central build positions. I'm wondering about how one gets to that strong end game position.

Also, unlike the other central powers Austria and Germany, I feel like Italy is a bit a more clogged in terms of maneuvering its armies. Austria and Germany both have vast land fronts in several directions adjacent to their home centers, while Italy has Switzerland and the awkward shape of its peninsula creating inconvenient land bottlenecks.

gameID=127189

One of my best Italy performances. If you can slip into East Med and work with Austria against the inevitable Turkey/Russia alliance that forms early game, that's ideal. When Turkey blocks it, as he did here, I like making a play on France. You really have to prop up Austria for the beginning of the game, and should only open against Austria if he provokes it. There may be special circumstances where an earlier invasion of Austria is warranted, but that's rare.

@VirtualBob: I fully agree. Aggression against Austria is not a light decision to come to. Often that may lead to worse complications and consequences (such as an Austria that just simply goes kamikaze against you in response), so I'm certainly not advocating for that in all circumstances.

At least a short-term alliance with Austria is often an appropriate course of action. I'm worried about the long-term issues of keeping parity with Austrian growth. I'm concerned that taking the AI alliance all the way into the end-game often just means one of a couple of things:
1) Austria is the dominant partner with the much better position to make a solo happen, meaning that a stab is likely imminent if it hasn't already happened.
2) Cooperation is simply a matter of necessity as part of a larger alliance to stop someone else from soloing.

How does Italy play a successful AI alliance into the endgame, while giving himself at least any equally strong position toward a solo shot? Perhaps having very strong development into the Atlantic while Austria is more bogged down by a stubborn Russia/Germany going down slowly may be a viable path? How does Italy best ensure such development?

You build a strong AI as Italy by eliminating Turkey ASAP, and if Austria is doing well against Russia while he helped with Turkey as well, then you continue to support him to fight Germany while you fight France if you wish. Or, you just crush Austria once Turkey is dead. That decision depends on the rest of the map. If you are Italy, Austria is the tool you use to kill Turkey and repel Russia, and a decent Austria knows this and wants to milk it just as much as you. He can't fight you without turning on the Juggernaut, he has to fight Turkey or Russia or both in the opening or he gets crushed.

If Russia starts to get the better of Austria though, then allying with Russia to take out Austria is a good call once Turkey is squashed. The bottom line is the first opponent Italy should have to his east is Turkey.

I've got nothing really useful for how to play Italy.
For me, but not necesarily for any other player,
if I get Italy, the best strategy is:
1 try helping Austria have a decent chance & sacrifice Italy to that cause.
2 if Austria is hostile, ensure his destruction by Turkey or Russia ( mutual destruction )
3 to go CD

I have had fair success with italy, soloing twice with them. Both of the times i have soloed with them, i have attacked austria early, while making sure turkey wasn't expanding with the help of russia. However this opening against austria has had its problems as turkey can get quite large and once austria is dead, run you over. Allying with austria is a good way to get into a draw, but if you want to solo, it seems you need to attack austria. As mentioned above, when allying with austria, they get the better part of the deal

I'd like to see those games ccga4. I'd presume the Turkey players in the Italy games you soloed by going after Austria in the beginning were subpar, or Russia/Turkey started going at it big time early on. The latter does happen, but in top gunboat games it rarely does.

@Major: Yeah, playing for a strong and lasting AI alliance was my initial thoughts toward approaching the Italian game as well. In my first three full games as Italy, I played that way and wound up going 3 for 3 in Austrian solos. Each time, I found myself unable to keep up with Austria into the late game and he got the dominant position to solo. Not very happy with those results, so I've been trying to shake things up in later games.

@y2k: regarding your earlier comments on attacking Turkey first, how do Turkey and the Balkans get split up between AI? One stable split (and perhaps a bit too idealistic split) is to see Italy get all of Turkey, while Austria gets all of the Balkans, and Russia gets nothing. Or maybe Russia keeps Rumania? Regardless, if Austria has no concern about Italy, he can then exert his full force onto Russia.

So this seems to require Russia staying strong in the game to moderate the growth of Austria. Also, you mentioned having Italy get armies in at Germany to at least share in those spoils? It seems very difficult to pull that off in gunboat, as moving on Germany may look to be aggressive against Austria. Also, Russia needs to be weak enough to not steal away the spoils of Turkey while also being strong enough to offer resistance to Austria? Perhaps this requires a weaker England/Germany to prevent Russia from having to face multiple threats, but this could also mean a stronger France, meaning trouble when he brings pressure from the west.

It seems that if Austria starts to get ahead by the time Turkey is finished, the immediate course of action for Russia and Italy should be to take out or at least reduce him next.

well getting Italy exposes my limitations as a player.
If I get Italy, then I automatically write the game off as a loss for me.
I do not play Gunboat.
How I will play Italy depends on the Austrian player's approach, if he seems like a decent chap, then I support him, if not I ruin his chances to teach him a lesson for future games.
I just don't take playing Italy seriously. ( minimise the headf**** involved )
I think it's a mistake for Italy to send an army to Tunis, in so many games I've seen Italy do that, then the army in Tunis gets trapped there & is useless

The games that I look at where Italy does well all seem to involve a few too amny backstabs for me to be comfortable with
eg, Italy allies with Austria to eliminate Turkey & secures a peace agreement with France, then back stabs Austria, knocks out Austria & gets Sevastapol as well, then charges west & back stabs France

I'm not particularly comfortable playing Italy either, but on one thing at least, I have to agree with the Major above: don't send an army to Tunis in '01, it's more useful elsewhere. No one else should be threatening that center for a while, so just take it with your fleet and then move it east or west depending on your overall strategy.

gameID=128868

gameID=116012

Those are the two games y2kjbk

I will say the first one gives a better example, as the second one had a unbalancing cd. However, in both games i attacked austria right away, and especially in the first turkey was weak and russia was strong. I have also soloed with italy on other diplomacy sites, and russia was also strong in them

As expected, Russia and Turkey kept bashing heads in the Black Sea in game 1. As Russia, I always let Turkey into the Black Sea in A01 if we bounce in S01. If Dharmaton let MichiganMan into the Black Sea in A01 and worked with him against Austria rather than fight both, you would have gotten into a tough spot. Turkey tried out peace with Russia eventually, which just resulted in Russia taking Ankara. Germany's interference with Russia certainly helped, and you also did great to thrash Russia big time after he was dealing with multiple hostile enemies on all fronts.

Bottom line is Italy invading Austria in the beginning of a gunboat game really only works if Russia does your work of containing Turkey for you, and again, that rarely happens in top gunboat games.

@y2kjbk ... I would only add that France & Germany were slow to recognize the threat in game 1 too.

@Major and Hazel, I disagree with "take Tunis with a fleet" as a general principle. It may be appropriate in some scenarios, where you want to use that army offensively early, but it also has the drawback of having your fleet not in ION at the beginning of 1902, which slows down naval options aiming at the Balkans or Turkey. I'm also not that worried about that army getting stuck in Tunis either, since one follow-up after putting it there would be to attempt a convoy into gre/alb or just bringing it back to apu for defense, depending on the situation.

Also, I'm not too sure how much use an 1901 army attack is for Italy. If you aim at Austria, you may put him in a tough spot, but that may nothing more than just accelerating an RT alliance into domination. Even worse, an Austria player facing imminent demise coming from pressure in all directions, may just decide to kamikaze bringing Italy down with him while not caring about leaving huge gains to RT.

I guess another option with the non-convoyed army would be to back up an attack on France or Germany? But how does one successfully play an early attack on either of these two? The attack on Germany through Tyrolia will look like an attack on Austria, likely making a second enemy while being easily countered by Germany. Alternatively, the move into Piedmont has no traction on Marseilles, and perhaps is best just left in Piedmont during the fall in attempt to bluff France into drawing back in mar, blocking that build site and possibly costing him an SC.

Playing Italy in gunboat is in my experience very hard. The main point is that standard opening strategy doesn't work: the Lepanto sucks. If Italy plays the Lepanto, Turkey *will* see it coming. In 1901. So you're not going to surprise Turkey with a cool convoy to Syria. Turkey will build a fleet in Smyrna, and relocate its Black Sea fleet to Aeg. That does mean leaving Bulgaria unprotected, which Austria picks up. In 1902, Austria goes to 6 and you stay at 4.

The real difference between gunboat and full press is that if you're allowed to talk, you can negotiate with Austria, and have him repay the favor. In a gunboat, Austria can do whatever he likes. In fact, he might simply take Venice in 1903. Or he can take Rumania and go to an incredibly solid 7 centers. Meanwhile, you're still hoping to somehow gain access to the Turkish mainland. At this point, your best bet may well be to abandon the assault on Turkey and look elsewhere. y2kjbk's game is a perfect example.

So what's the alternative? Attacking Austria might not be that bad of a plan. If you do it right off the bat, chances are you'll face a juggernaut. But if Turkey has moved to Armenia it's a different story. Or if E/G are attacking Russia, you might outplay Turkey.

France is often weak as well. You can wait until France commits to attacking either England or Germany and attempt to sneak into Mar/Spa/Por. With the right timing, it's a crippling play. Plus, holding on to Spa/Mar/Por is quite doable.

As Italy, I think the most important thing is to be opportunistic, and not over-commit to attacking Turkey. You'll have to face the Turk at some point, but you don't have to do it rightaway.

I love playing Italy in gunboat. The Austria/Italy combination is sneakily powerful and develops logically, so there isn't a lot of guesswork and potential for screwups that could doom other gunboat alliances. Plus, as Italy, there is less of a threat for a stab. Austria needs fleets to do that, so you can see a stab coming a mile away.

An often overlooked aspect of Italy in gunboat is the disproportionate influence it has over France in 1901. One Italian army in Piedmont is enough to keep any French expansion in check by essentially forcing France to abandon any plans on challenging for Munich or Belgium, yet its rarely enough to cause France to build that headache of a fleet in Marseilles. A Ven - Pie is also effective in alleviating any Austrian fears of a quick stab in F 1901, but gives Italy the option of a 1902 stab by moving A Pie - Tyr and building an army in Ven, should the opportunity present itself (say, if Turkey decides to attack Russia).

I drew Italy in my biggest gunboat to date: gameID=117034

I actually got fairly lucky early on in this game. Austria tried for Tyrolia at the same time I decided to move there from Piedmont in F 1901, so we ended up bouncing. In the end, though, it was a lucky break, since Russia had tried to sneak into Vienna from Galicia.

This game, though, is a classic case of why Italy is so hard to play - namely, it takes forever to get your fifth center. Tunis should be assumed in 1901, especially in gunboat. The fifth center, though, is where Italy always has difficulty. I always find it better for Italy to pick a direction and stick with it. If you Lepanto, you better stick with it, since you can't afford to split your units up to fight both Turkey and France. Likewise, if you pursue centers in Marseilles and Spain, you better commit. This is harder, though, because its usually a wise idea to leave a fleet behind in ION to both prop up Austria and guard your own backside from a sneaky Turkish fleet. Fighting France early on is always a gamble in gunboat, since you're basically counting on Austria to do most of the dirty work against Turkey and Russia.

In this game, though, it took me until 1905 until I took Smyrna, at which point France was sitting at 9 centers and Austria at 7, although the Austrian campaign against Russia was equally slow to develop. Austria frustrated me up to that point by failing to cut support in Con, which would have put me in Smyrna much sooner, so after I had secured Smyrna, I decided to stab. Unfortunately, mostly due to the fact that I had taken so long to get to 5 centers and England and Germany put up next to zero resistance to France, by the time I stabbed France picked up 2 builds, then 2 more the next year, putting him at 13, so I wisely ceded Trieste back to Austria and concentrated on mopping up in Turkey.

If you are playing a semi-powerful Italy in the endgame, you need to be cognizant of the fact that Tunis is going to be the 18th center for England or France. If you get too caught up in Turkey or Russia and lose track of one of English or French growth, Tunis could be vulnerable if you don't have enough fleets in place to secure the stalemate in the Med. Similarly, you also need to be aware when Spain/Portugal/Marseilles stands to be the 18th center and be in a position to support a French unit in Spain for the stalemate if necessary.

I want to reply to this to keep this thread active. I've never had, until recently, the option of playing Italy in gunboat. It seems I have been Austria more than any other nation. As Austria, I have a tendency to support hold Venice with Trieste in 1901 just to indicate that I'd like to be friendly, if not outright cooperative. That way, if it is received well, then I can concentrate on Russia and Turkey, hopefully compelling Italy to go west against France.

Regarding that unit in Piedmont stalling France's expansion...how necessary would a fleet be in that region to dissuade those French fleets?

This game (part of the summer 2011 GB tournament) has been my best performance as Italy in a gunboat to date:
gameID=69813
4-way FGIT draw

I decided to experiment with the early attack on Austria. Perhaps it wasn't the best idea given that Turkey showed early friendliness with Russia (by leaving Black Sea open while moving his fleet out into the Aegean) suggesting that an RT might unfold. Fortunately, several factors went my way to make this strategy work out into the mid-game:
1) Austria was quickly surrounded and eliminated by IRT.
2) Turkey actually helped me into Greece. He then played a bit passively, but perhaps his caution toward Russia was well advised as that stab did come immediately as Austria fell.
3) Russia benefited from the England 1901 NMR and a friendly Germany to become the strongest power and the development with Austria left any further development of a possible RT severely unbalanced into his favor. Luckily for me, Turkey became his next target, while he showed friendliness toward me, which I soon repaid with a stab.
4) The England NMR also had a huge impact on the western game of course. Leaving Germany and Russia strong, while leaving France with the relatively smaller share of the gains, tied up France with having to deploy fleets into the north Atlantic while delaying his Mediterranean development, much to my benefit.

Russia becoming the strongest player and the solo threat put the target on his back. He quickly faced pressure from the whole board and was ultimately eliminated. The game ended in a draw after that as no one had a significant chance without facing substantial risk.