It's throwing the Scottish independence referendum in a loop too...if UK separates from EU then so does Scotland apparently, meaning Scotland wouldn't be a member state if it chose to secede from a Britain outside the EU.

You have to understand it was nothing really to do with the EU but more about trying to stop the British Conservative Party ripping themselves to pieces. A lot of right-wingers are Euro sceptics (they don't like those Johnny Foreigners) and the Tories were losing a lot of votes to a party called UKIP, basically the British National Party for white collar workers and the middle-classes.
He is trying to unite his own party ahead of the next General Election in 2015.
We already have an unwritten agreement in the UK that any changes in the EU that give away more sovereignty have to be decided by referendum.
As this is talking about taking back sovereignty the referendum will never happen.
Cameron is well-meaning but foolhardy and out-of-touch, a product of the finest education money can buy, but you can't buy commom sense. .
Very few people are clamouring to get out of Europe in the UK, we benefit massively by being in Europe, this uncertainty about our future involvement will cost us investment and jobs ...... thanks you ignorant moron.

I thought Cameron was planning the EU referendum to take place after the Scottish referendum?

Yes the Scottish referendum is first, which means any scot who wants to be certain of staying in the eu has to vote for independents.

I'm 50/50 on uk membership of the eu, but think Cameron's speech was an awful idea. He has been banging on about reforming the Common Agricultural Policy for example, if you were one of the other members would you now want to reform something to suit a member that might not even be a member when the reforms happen? And if he doesn't get any substantial reforms and then the UK vote to stay in, how does he press for continuing reform, surely the other members will then say 'you signed up for membership knowing the rules - you can't change them now'

A very poor negotiating position brought about by party problems rather than UK national interest. I'm not against a referendum btw, but we should get on and have it now - end any uncertainty.

Personally I am pro europe, while it is true that the UK spends more money funding EU policies than it receives in return I still believe to benefits of just generally being on better terms with your neighbouring countries, increased trade etc make it worthwhile.

Now I must admit throughout my school life I never studied politics as a subject in school, nor was I huge on it in my spare time. I knew what I needed to know. What countries are having elections, the main political parties in those countries etc. But I think I knew more than the average person my age. But perhaps I am being complacent. Having said that, I recall watching question time around a year ago when they were discussing the EU debates etc. And I recall a girl who had just graduated university with a degree in politics asking if it is a good idea hold a referendum on such a issue, as she herself was convinced she didn't know enough about the matter to make an informed decision, so how would any old commoner have a hope of making a good decision for the country. I must admit I don't feel like I know enough about the costs and benefits for the UK to be a member of the EU to make the decision to vote in a refendum.
But as I say I am pro Europe anyway. However I would hold I biased view considering I am an Eastern European who has lived in the UK since the age of 3.
I enjoy the luxury of being completely legal to live in the country I now consider my home, and have done for the last 15 years.

That is my opinion on the matter. I am pro Europe, but I don't feel the population are educated well enough to be aloud to make a decision on such an important issue, such as myself. I am of voting age, but I would feel guilty voting without knowing all the facts.

Good point Mintyboy - we should just let the Queen decide!

I agree with you that one of the benefits of EU is that you can come here and I can go and live and work in Portugal or whereever I choose. If you value this right highly, you don't need a politics degree to decide if the EU is good for *everyone*, everyone else will decide whats good for them - if the EU is good for you vot to stay in.

I've already expressed that I'm 50/50 so I not encourageing your vote out of self interest.

Very upfront, Minty.
Despite not knowing all the facts, I do know Scottish separatism is crucial and necessary. Right now. (Should have been in the 70's if they hadn't rigged the referendum.)

Bloody good speech!

Nigee talked more bollocks in his post here than he has for a while (which is really saying something), but one thing he is right about is that a referendum would have been triggered by any EU treaty that would give away more sovereignty. As the EU is on a path of change regardless of the UK this was a certainty, but quite when it would happen and under what conditions were completely unknown.

In his speech Cameron has essentially taken away some of the uncertainty. Now we know in which period of time a referendum will happen. Now we have a better idea under what conditions the referendum will be held. Instead of the Tories fighting another rear-guard Euro-sceptic argument when some French motivated treated comes out of the blue, Cameron has manouvred himself into a position where he can lead a pro-European argument fighting for the sort of Europe that countless frustrated European voters (in the UK and across the continent) want.

An observation of Europe is that no one wants to be the first to say something unpopular, but when a country nails its colours to the mast suddenly support rises up out of the woodwork. Will Britain be able to cherry pick a bunch of powers that it alone can take back from Brussels? God, no! But I don't believe that is anyone's real intention. As the debate moves forward, however, I can say with some confidence that a powerful alliance will form with the intention of securing powers back from Brussels for all the member states who whish to have them, and a real effort to tackle the democratic deficit will begin.

A better Europe awaits :)

@ Timur. According to latest poll (as in Scotsman, Times & BBC) the support for Scottish independence is down to 23%...

What annoys me about the Scottish vote is that I don't get one despite the fact that I can be a Scottish citizen if it was successful. Damn you, Salmond, you traitorous goon!

I hope Octavious is right, I really do.

"Yes the Scottish referendum is first, which means any scot who wants to be certain of staying in the eu has to vote for independents."

Actually, pro-European Scots would have to vote AGAINST independence to even have a shot at staying in the EU. The overwhelming weight of international legal opinion is against an independent Scotland having automatic membership in the EU. All the support that the continued membership position has rests on an argument over EU citizenship. Even ignoring the legal hurdles, Scottish membership without reapplication would never be accepted just because of the precedent it sets. Wave goodbye to Belgium and possibly Spain and Italy if memberstates can break apart and the secessionist parts retain EU membership.


Not that all this referendum talk means too much anyway. Labour will probably win the 2015 election even if all the UKIP supporters jump back to the Conservatives over the referendum issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party#Relationship_with_Conservative_Party
In recent years there has been defections from the Conservatives to UKIP, some party members and many of their voters.
If this carries on the Conservatives will have no chance of a working majority at the next general election, UKIP have already said they won't work with the Tories after the election but would work with The Labour Party.
The subject of the EU has plagued the Conservatives for many years but the next election will be fought on the economy and not Europe which is just a sideshow for the UK public.
As the election gets nearer sides for and against will be drawn within the Conservative Party and rather than focus on the economy they will once again consume themselves with this subject. Labour have already accepted that it is in the best interests of the UK to stay within the EU and so have British business leaders.
Mark my words this is a political stunt and this referendum will never take place.

I personally think it's almost always a bad idea for a country to leave a large and powerful supranational organization. Once you do it, you just matter less.

Imagine if Cambodia ditched ASEAN. Their importance would be diminished. Ditto if Senegal left ECOWAS. Ditto if Ethiopia left the AU. Ditto if Sri Lanka gets kicked out of the Commonwealth.

It's just not a good decision in the long term. Secession in general is a bad idea unless you're being oppressed. And trying to say the UK is oppressed by the EU is... a stretch at best.

The Obama administration has made no bones about it - it wants a strong Britain within a strong Europe.

The President's press secretary, Jay Carney, has said that he welcomed the Prime Minister's call for Britain to remain in the European Union, adding that the US believed the UK was stronger for being in the EU, and the EU was stronger for having the UK as a member.

In the modern version of the special relationship, what Carney called the essential relationship, Britain is valued as an ally precisely because it is one of the leaders of the biggest economy in the world.

Some in Washington think Mr Cameron's speech threatens that role and introduce more unnecessary uncertainty to an already uncertain world.

Until recently, the promise of a referendum from Mr Cameron was seen in Washington as just another phase in the rocky relationship between the UK and continental Europeans.

But now alarm bells are ringing. The White House doesn't care about the EU's internal organisation, and Europe is hardly its biggest concern anyway, but Mr Cameron's promise is definitely an unwanted irritation.

Full article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21170859

I only watched the first 15 minutes, because I'm busy with other things but from what I heard, this is the David Cameron and grew to love and endorsed back when he was elected.

I agreed with almost everything that was said, and I like his vision for the future of the EU.

My biggest problem with Cameron is, like many politicians, what they say they will do and what they end up doing is very different. Cameron is a right wing politician who I agree with on most issues, yet when he sits down in parliment he caves to the demands of the opposition too much for my liking. I think he would be better off if he stuck with what he wanted and kept the coalition strong.

I'm really glad that he is pro-EU and to be honest, I would probably endorse the Labour party in the next election if Cameron was anti-EU like many people on the right.

European parliament have accepted English as the language of choice

The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c." Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like fotograf" 20 persent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by " v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

Ze drem vil finali kum tru.

As for my personal stance. I support the main goal of the EU, its an economic zone with free trade and migration between all members. This is good, there are some needless regulations on banks and especially on agriculture that I am against, but I think over all the EU is more good then it is bad.

"The Obama administration has made no bones about it - it wants a strong Britain within a strong Europe."

So what? Surely you're not arguing that your country ought to choose its destiny based on the policy preferences of the United States. What's best for us may easily not be best for you.

For example, a United States of Europe wold be a godsend of an ally for the United States of America to have. A fellow Western, democratic, economic giant to help keep the world stable? Yes please!

But the fact is that there is absolutely no public support for such a project. "Ever closer union" has always meant a march towards federation, and Finns and Spaniards will never have a relationship like Mainers and Nevadans. The cultural differences between the various people of Europe are real, deep, and retard amalgamation.

Now, a proper federal system could be forced on the peoples of Europe. Just look at the Lisbon Treaty to see how the European Idea progresses even in the face of clear and widespread opposition. In a way, it's a good thing. Europe has been at peace for the longest period of time in history. But at the same time the European Union is wildly undemocratic and its exercise of what is seen as arbitrary power is rekindling old hatreds and prejudices, as the Nazi caricatures of Angela Merkel and success of far-right and far-left political parties shows.


The EU as it currently exists cannot endure. It has to either become a federation or become the trade bloc that most people were expecting it to be, not stay at this undemocratic middle position. Maybe we'll look back and see how smart Britai nwas to leave before the whole rotten edifice came tumbling down, or credit them with spurring the movement for reform while remaining a member. Whatever it is, it's for the people of Britain (and all the countries of Europe, individually) to decide, not the American president. No matter how great a non-rival co-superpower would be from our perspective.

Integration is good overall. I support the principle of the EU on the grounds that erosion of state sovereignty into larger institutions is the future.

The real challenge of this project is making large quasi-federal institutions like the trail the EU is blazing more democratic than the EU has been so far. That will be hard, but I think, perhaps counter-intuitively, that much of what holds it back from being very democratic is that its constituent members haven't given up enough national political sovereignty yet. I'm not a fool though, I'm giving them time. The full federalization might happen in 30-60 years.

@Invictus - I think by your words you may be missing the point on several issues.
1) You don't think that Cameron gets status and kudos from US support, of course he does. More importantly is the business investments that come from the US to the UK as a result of being a member of the EU. The uncertainty now caused by Cameron threatening to pull out of Europe will now shape investment decisions for multi-national companies the world over who have or want a base in Europe to do business with the EU. I expect our Irish cousins are rubbing their hands with glee as companies see them as a safer bet as a way into the single market, our loss will be someone elses gain.

2) "European Union is wildly undemocratic and its exercise of what is seen as arbitrary power is rekindling old hatreds and prejudices, as the Nazi caricatures of Angela Merkel and success of far-right and far-left political parties shows."
The success of all opposition parties is due to the failure of the incumbents to come up with a credible plan to deal with the financial debt crisis and very little to do with "arbitrary powers" that the EU have been wielding for the last 40 years.
The financial crisis being perpetuated by the failure of the "Euro Project" is leading to countries that are struggling economically by having an over-inflated currency making them expensive and uncompetitive. The Euro value is tied to the strongest economy in Europe i.e. Germany, but it is doing unto;ld damage to the smaller economies.
If the Euro Project fails many govts will fall and so Merkel marches blindly ahead with proposals to finance sovereign debt for companies that can't afford to pay, it is a Euro-shambles. But of course Merkel knows that the fate of the Euro and her own are so closely tied she cannot consider any other options.
European finance ministers have apparently been working on a plan that allows some of the weaker countries to leave and float their currency again but the problem with this now is if that should happen loans given to these countries would almost certainly have to be written down or written off which would make the German and French banks technically bankrupt and we would have another banking crisis on our hands.
The simplest and easiest and cheapest solution would be for Germany to leave the Eurozone and go back to the Deutschemark, this would allow the Euro to depreciate to a level that would make other European countries competitive again and would attract inward investment from outside the EU.
3)

@Invictus - I think by your words you may be missing the point on several issues.
1) You don't think that Cameron gets status and kudos from US support, of course he does. More importantly is the business investments that come from the US to the UK as a result of being a member of the EU. The uncertainty now caused by Cameron threatening to pull out of Europe will now shape investment decisions for multi-national companies the world over who have or want a base in Europe to do business with the EU. I expect our Irish cousins are rubbing their hands with glee as companies see them as a safer bet as a way into the single market, our loss will be someone elses gain.

2) "European Union is wildly undemocratic and its exercise of what is seen as arbitrary power is rekindling old hatreds and prejudices, as the Nazi caricatures of Angela Merkel and success of far-right and far-left political parties shows."
The success of all opposition parties is due to the failure of the incumbents to come up with a credible plan to deal with the financial debt crisis and very little to do with "arbitrary powers" that the EU have been wielding for the last 40 years.
The financial crisis being perpetuated by the failure of the "Euro Project" is leading to countries that are struggling economically by having an over-inflated currency making them expensive and uncompetitive. The Euro value is tied to the strongest economy in Europe i.e. Germany, but it is doing unto;ld damage to the smaller economies.
If the Euro Project fails many govts will fall and so Merkel marches blindly ahead with proposals to finance sovereign debt for companies that can't afford to pay, it is a Euro-shambles. But of course Merkel knows that the fate of the Euro and her own are so closely tied she cannot consider any other options.
European finance ministers have apparently been working on a plan that allows some of the weaker countries to leave and float their currency again but the problem with this now is if that should happen loans given to these countries would almost certainly have to be written down or written off which would make the German and French banks technically bankrupt and we would have another banking crisis on our hands.
The simplest and easiest and cheapest solution would be for Germany to leave the Eurozone and go back to the Deutschemark, this would allow the Euro to depreciate to a level that would make other European countries competitive again and would attract inward investment from outside the EU.
3) The average person in the street is not overly concerned that the EU is undemocratic but more concerned about having a job and putting food on the tablr for their children . This is whar we call 'bread & butter issues', these are the subjects that consume the masses, not the vagaries and complexities of European political institutuions, those subjects consume the chattering classes.
As someone famous once said 'it's the economy stupid'.
4) The biggest issues that consume the British Conservatives is the European Court of Human Rights that challenges them on matters of social and employment law and these drives right-wingers crazy. They see it as political correctness gone mad.
Also freedom of movement within the EU has caused a huge influx of Eastern European economic migrants that works in time of growth but causes resentment in times of hardship.
Thet are also upset about rules that give workers rights because the UK Tories believe our best way for the UK to compete in the world is by forcing down wage costs and making people work longer, if that were true why has Germany been so successful? The Tories have not learnt the lessons from the failed Reaganomics/Thatcherite era of the early '80's.
Cameron is a well meaning fuckwit who realised he had to do something to try and re-unite his party and jingoism and wrapping yourself in the Union Jack whilst bashing Europe will always work for the right-wing.
Sadly the more intelligent are not as easily bought by the all of the nationalistic flag waving, the majority of British people got over the Europe issue years ago, we've moved on.
What Cameron has highlighted in his speech is that his party is still split on Europe and he is appealing to the UK equivalent of the US 'Tea Party' because Tory Party support is leeching to UKIP.who support coming out of Europe.
5) The real issue is still economic growth and current policies are still failing so Cameron regularly comes up with random topics to divert the British people.
I kind of like his random clutch of subjects at inappropriate moments, a fortnight ago he suddenly came out in support of churches having to conduct gay marriages, this week it is Europe, next week could be anything, As people come under pressure their ability to think in straight lines seems to diminish.
He might send some troops down to the Falklands, that will win him a few votes.
UK politics would be a duller place without Cameron, never a dull moment.

I'm sorry to repeat an old argument, but I think that merging the functions of commission president and council president into one single position and have the person to do that be elected in a EU-vote would already give a lot more democratic legitimacy to the union, without requiring an awful lot of structural change.

Hear hear redhouse! It's really not that hard once you decide that we need to work together in this coming Chinese century. Same thing can be said about the EP. Get all parliamentarians in through an EU-wide vote and we're halfway there.

@octavious - imagine that that we were in a club of 27 diplomacy players and I was quite popular and contributed more financially than I took out. Now imagine that I was to say I'm willing to stay a member (I like the site and think it does some good things) but I'd don't like, say the points scoring system. I think we should change it but even if it is changed, I'll still need to ask my wife if I can stay a member. Would you want to change the way the scoring system works?

If you don't change the system, and my wife says I can stay a member anyway. What would your reaction be if I ask to negotiate changing the scoring system?

@ Maniac

The referendum will happen regardless of who wins the election. If the Tories win it's a given. My gut feeling is that Labour will support the referendum by the time of the election anyway (there has been plenty of support from Labour MPs) and even if they don't we'll get one anyway when the next treaty comes along (which given the need for change won't be too far away).

The reaction will depend on the country. If I agree with the changes to the club I will support it. Europe will change one way or another. There is a lot of support for a return of powers to member states (Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands etc etc) and a lot of fear of a loss of more power to Brussels (Ireland do well because they can determine their own taxes. If Brussels take that they're finished).

The club will change. Britain is a rallying point for states controlling their own affairs, France for deeper integration and a US of Europe. My bet is that a Euro -core will integrate further, and the rest will take back some powers to the point they can live with it, with possibly a bit of a fudge to make it work.

@Octavious I can tell you why The Labour Party will not offer the referendum because it offers a huge political platform for the far right, that is also the reason the Tories won't do it unless they were guaranteed they would win (i.e. a YES vote), it's too big a political gamble, especially just after you have taken power by popular vote, you already have your public mandate, why would you then give your opponents a stick to beat you with.
If you anything about UK politics then you know why Cameron has done this, whether you're willing to come clean on that is another matter but honesty is always a good policy.

Nigee, you're talking bollocks. The far right have nothing to do with anything. Go back to posting facebook spam from five years ago.

The truth hurts......

Which is why you go to such lengths to avoid it, I assume?

Also I don't know what you mean by a yes vote. Yes we want to stay in Europe, or yes we want to leave? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean Yes, we want to stay in. A Tory victory is a yes vote for a better Europe. The Tories were always the pro-European party. It's only in recent history when Europe has been dominated by high tax, inefficiency and ideology driven integration that the Party has become frustrated with it.

I would support the UKIP in the next election however if the Labours would support a referendum then...hmmm, I would think about it, I really liked Tony Blair. I'm not asking for us to leave, just the right to vote on staying or leaving. (Through, I would vote to get out but I wouldn't criticize those who vote the other way)

"England is not in Europe actually, Rebecca. We, we tolerate Europe, you know? Like, like a person tolerates herpes."
-Shaun Hastings Assassin's Creed

"The Labour Party will not offer the referendum because it offers a huge political platform for the far right, that is also the reason the Tories won't do it unless they were guaranteed they would win (i.e. a YES vote), it's too big a political gamble, especially just after you have taken power by popular vote, you already have your public mandate, why would you then give your opponents a stick to beat you with."

Labour probably wouldn't (read: won't) hold a referendum. The Conservatives, however, certainly will if they get the chance. If Cameron breaks his word on this it will be the end of the Conservative Party. Divisions over Europe drove the Tories to overthrow Thatcher, just imagine what could happen to the party now, when there is no dominating figure like her and dissenting voters have a home in UKIP.

If the Conservatives stay, there will be a referendum.