A England I always play to get Russia.And hope that France/Germany leave me alone.Or if they fight side with Germany as it can help in north and also against hostile France.

And all the talk of "Well, maybe it doesn't always work, but there is nothing better to do" is simply ridiculous. For example, gameID=101886 It is easy.

well, with a cd'ed Turkey Lepanto is good....

Turkey missed one move, and would have lost a center that turn no matter what, possibly two if he guessed wrong.

"There are defenses to the crusher, but to say it's a horrible play is downright stupid because it obviously works at least sometimes. The lepanto play absolutely sucks and playing I/A results in either Austria getting killed and you getting nothing or Austria getting big and you getting nothing."

1. No, I-A doesn't automatically = getting nothing.
2. It's not that it "works sometimes," it's that you literally have to be playing an Austria that plays suboptimally FOR it to work. It's like playing always-cooperate in the Prisoner's Dilemma because when it works you get more points than mutual-defect. That's great and all, but when the opponent's dominant strategy is always-defect, you can only avoid losing if your opponent is terrible.

and now I can counter that the Lepanto only works when Russia attacks Turkeyr (which slowed down his defense)

So here is your most recent game as Italy:

gameID=101189

Notice that you are playing with good players, and the crusher gets blown up immediately. Nevertheless, you insist on attacking Austria even after you were foiled, and so you get fucked over.

Before that:

gameID=100295

You waited, looked at your options, found a couple centers in France, then stabbed Austria when he was vulnerable and you would be able to handle Turkey, and you got a nice draw.

reply to those game links in a minute

Now we have a solo by you with the Bohemian Crusher. Nice! But there were a lot of mistakes:

gameID=99950

First of all, Turkey doesn't build in 1901! That is a gift, and gives you a jump on them. After that, Turkey incompetently insists on attacking Russia, even though he has Serbia and Greece gift wrapped to him. Meanwhile, Austria is making bad moves himself. Budapest is getting hit no matter what in Autumn 1901, so Austria needs to plan around that. I promise you, I came up with these moves before seeing the result. A strong moveset would be something like:
Trieste to Tyrolia supported by Vienna
Budapest to Trieste supported by Serbia.
Greece to Ionian Sea

Why? Because you are fully committed against Austria, and so Austria must fully defend against you. The only way you succeed against those moves is by having Tyrolia get supported to Vienna, at which point you are likely to lose Venice (Venice!) in the fall. Meanwhile, Russia picks up Budapest and likely takes Vienna from you in the fall.

You might say "Oh, I can think of moves to counter any other moveset", but the truth fo the matter is that when you fully commit to attacking someone in 1901 without any decisions made by anyone else, you compel strong players to make the easy moves that give them free centers.

Game 1:

My originial plan wasn't even a Bohemian Crusher, it was anti-Austria. I failed, but I decided to screw it an attack Austria. It wasn't smart, but I did

Game 2:
THe French CD ruins it for me. Any Italy who doesn't take advantage of a non-active France is stupid

And so you are bashing the Crusher because it doesn't have a 100 % chance at working? Lepanto's get stopped by Turkey all the time

I tried to lay out why it should fail every time (maybe with the exception of when Turkey stabs Russia in 1901 as well, but really not even then). Everything I said above wasn't that game specific at all.

Might as well say that the Lepanto shouldn't be used because Turkey's can generally block it, as long as Russia doesn't intefere (two Turkish fleets, and one army (assuming Turkey lost Bulgaria)

can hold off two Italian fleets. Russia is probably going to keep Austria busy

I'm not saying to Lepanto every time. I'm saying to see how the board is shaping up and to react.

The thing is, you can pull out of the Crusher by 1902. If Russia and Turkery don't try for the Black Sea, I will turn aroud and take care of the Juggernaut (using my build to get a fleet, maybe use the Bohemian army to go into Galacia to mess with Russia.

And it gets you builds by 1902, on most cases (Russia generally at least wants a little piece, helping you) so you can react then

Exactly! Don't always bohemian crusher just cuz. Lepanto sometimes, attack Austria in like 1902-1903 sometimes, and if you REALLy want, boh crusher sometimes too... Though uclabb gave good reasons why if your playing against competent players, it should never work.

And my last post was in response to uclabbs, not fortress's.

FD, a losing crusher: gameID=101827

Granted my Austria wasn't stellar (I over thought the defense almost every turn and didn't consider supporting Turkey into Ionian which I should have), but Italy still died. Which was my hope. (No offense, Partyzane)

dumbell, you are forgetting the most important thing:

THAT IS NOT A CRUSHER!

Seriously, how many people here actually KNOW what a Crusher is????

I guess I don't. I thought it was an acceptable variant though. I could have easily used the appropriate crusher defense and stalled it equally well.

dumbdell, there is a reason it is called the BOHEMIAN CRUSHER. That is like calling a move where you DON'T convoy to Turkey's land a Lepanto

FD, there are also things called variants. That was no Alpine Chicken either. Started like one, ended like a crusher. What's your point?

By your definition then, every single anti-Austria attack in 1901 is a Bohemian Crusher. That was just a (quite good, actually) anti-Austria attack

that is more in League with a feint move. Like using a fake Lepanto (aka, move like a lepanto in 1901, but then move into Trieste in the Fall)

Hey I was Turkey in that game! *smiles for camera*

Yea, the Bohemian Crusher is when you end up in Bohemia (shocker) and tyrolia in 1901, build army Venice, and go to work.

Thank you Skittles. By dropping the "bohemian" from the name, I inadvertently misunderstood the opening's very nature. Now I understand.

Still doesn't really bring any kind of understanding as to whether an aggressive anti-Austria Italy or a more passive one (by which I mean, one which stabs in 1902/3/4) is better... Opinions go both ways.

Maybe we can ask Tru for some stats? Where is the old Vaftrudner link? Anyone still have that for the openings data?

Since the Crusher only differentiates from a normal Tyrolean opening in A01, I don't think vaftstats has the data you're looking for.