*gets popcorn and waits*

I think Agent K has MPD/DID. And that falls into the batshit insane.

redhouse, your idea fails at the point of "if you step into random games"

Any gunboats above 1000 is usually semi-anon at least. There are very few high pot gunboats where it is completely anon, or the multi has enough points on both account to join.

I don't think there's any less chance of a multi in full press, when the phase length is more then 1 day.

Also, the biggest ever game on this site is a gunboat, most of the 7k pot games are gunboats, 50% of the top 20 games are gunboat. Are you serious you want to cancel these and force a lot of players (for examply me) to leave, since I scarcely play full press.

For example, I'm not joining any games under 200 bet size recently, it's a pretty good filter for multis, and I assum there's no multi at all when the bet size is 2000 , I assume you agree. So why would we stop playing those???

Agent K's recent thing was presss. gameID=71225

You can still know who you are playing in gunboat, your argument is likely more directed towards purely anonymous games.

I played a live FP game when I first joined this site with Cockney and (at least) one of his multis. Obviously it can be done, and successfully, as his track record and Agent K's have shown. The only, ONLY, solution is to set your games up in advance. You're guaranteed quality opponents and eliminate the possibility of multis.

This could be solved by pure programming.

All we have to do, is buildup a core non-multi list, like we know 2wl, lando and rokakoma are distinct players. We make a list of 50-100-200 players ("the core") whom we know arent multis (when they play inside the core.)

This means, any games who has at least 6 coremembers in the game means the 7th player cannot be a multi with those 6 others. So the list can grow automatically, with every user having a userlist with whom he is surely not the same.

When you build up a game you can either choose from the core users (in where any two players are different) or you can choose from those whom you already know are distinct with the rest of the players in that game.

This is a slowly building list, especially the core list is hard to expand, since the new member has to prove he is not the same with ANY other coremembers, but it's a list, and it's growing, and in months/years it would be very useful.

The problem, though, is that we would have put Agent K on that list as of last week.

I wouldn't bash gunboats so quickly. Gunboat does not equal "filled with cheaters".
The key is to play in private (password protected) games as opposed to public ones. This makes a far greater difference in avoiding cheaters than simply avoiding gunboats, as you can just as easily get a cheater in an public, full press game.

With gunboat games, there is actually a quite an active group of well-known, respected players that frequently organize private, semi-anon games via the forum. Getting a private gunboat game with quality players is actually quite easy as a result.

Reputation and passwords are the key to getting a quality game.

Also connecting users with facebook/g+ accounts (if the users agrees of course) would also strengthen the possibility he is not a multi. Everybody can have gmail/facebook email address on which you have to send a confirmation letter, and if the user confirms we know who he is. I guess most players wouldn't create another FB account just to multi here.

These wold be optionals of course, but when you create the new game beside the password you could define only FB/Gmail confirmed players, and/or "core" members can join. And issue solved.

I know lots of people with multip[le facebook/g+ accounts, so that isn't going to filter the multis.

Associate each account with a Social Security, driver's license, or passport number. Kestas can visit each user individually and take fingerprints, which he can cross reference with local police databases to assure identity. This would serve the dual purpose of also removing any pedos from the site.

Fixing it with coding is a bad idea. I specialized in AI and pattern recognition in college when I got my compeng degree. This is best suited for moderators like we have. We DO have tools to recognize and determine strong possibilities to minimize the work we have to do, but it is a judgement decision and not to be taken lightly.

Any coded system will either be too closely structured and deter new users and the site will slowly fall apart or be able to be beaten and people will circumvent the system and cheating will start growing.

"redhouse, your idea fails at the point of "if you step into random games""

Que?

"I played a live FP game when I first joined this site with Cockney and (at least) one of his multis. Obviously it can be done, and successfully, as his track record and Agent K's have shown. The only, ONLY, solution is to set your games up in advance. You're guaranteed quality opponents and eliminate the possibility of multis."

Several comments. 1) "Obviously it can be done." Sure it can, I never doubted that. I'm just saying I believe (I never saw any stats about this) that the barrier to do it will be higher. Just like people shouldn't own handguns, because, yes, you can kill with a knife too, true, if I want to I can kill with the keyboard of my computer, but it just becomes progressively more difficult and hence, progressively uninteresting to do it.

"The only, ONLY, solution is to set your games up in advance"
"This could be solved by pure programming." (roka)
"The problem, though, is that we would have put Agent K on that list as of last week." 2WL
"I know lots of people with multip[le facebook/g+ accounts, so that isn't going to filter the multis." Draug

Stop. True, all of it true. But I'm not proposing to solve anything. There's always going to be some degree of multying. All I'm discussing is the various barriers a multi would have to take to become an effective multi and the more there are, the less multis you'll find. So yes, PW protected games = very good, Core list of players = very good, Linking social security numbers and Facebook account = very good. They're all things that help against multying, just as I believe steering clear of Gunboat does.

Okay, I'm getting more popcorn. This should fuel the discussion nicely :-)

yeah, politics always overrule rationality :)

They clearly do when it comes to promoting mods to admins...

redhouse: I played around 100-110 gunboat so far (according to gunboat GR)
As I remember around 10-15% was when I suspected there's a multi, and all of them were under 500 pot. I really don't care, I just don't join low pot games anymore.

And I don't think the ratio among gunboats is any bigger than in fullpress. I'm sure Vaftrudner or the mods could provide some statistics on that one.

Recently I've had more problems in gunboats with people just randonly leaving even when they are in a strong position, to be fair most multis are usually rubbish players and you can soon spot a trend when you look back at their history and see that they are rubbish on their own and great with their mates, or is that meta-gaming. Anyways same difference if you're playing them, still spoils the game.
Anyways you shouldn't even be talking about the idea of cheating on this forum or you get arseholes telling you how you're breaking the rules because for some reason they want to keep the issue as quiet as possible, it's good to see they are still failing miserably.

Ohh, and by the way, half of the multiing games are lost by the multiing one :D, especially in live games, due to lack of time to finalize orders. Also multiing players are usually very bad players (otherwise the wouldn't multi)

Once I counted how much points I have lost in those game where someone has been banned later for multiing. And altogether it was under 100 .

@roka:

That's a good point. More points = another barrier, I guess, but I'm sure whether the stats prove / disprove I'm right, I will care much. The point is that I believe it'll be much harder to identify a multi in a gunboat game, than in a full-press game. So possibly you'll find much more cheating in an FP game than a Gunboat game, because they're so much more easily detected (for example, in the one game I played that had multis in them, Deploracy or something, there were three people in the game who were just *not* talking to me and they were doing pretty well. (Although it's weird that three multis don't manage to win the game together, lol).

Anyways, this is rapidly turning into a thread where I'll call everyone who disagrees with me an idiot and the more people disagree with what I'm saying, the more I'm going to believe in it. Better get some work done today :-)

Be sure to keep the popcorn coming!

There is an example above though, where someone lost 800 due to Agent K's multiing in just one game...

@Nigee - discussing cheating is fine. Accusing people, even with subtle indirect accusations or sarcasm, is not. Once banned, they are open game on the forum. There is a distinct difference and you are just an asshole for not seeing it. No, I didn't say fucktard, I said asshole. I don't mean that in a good way either.

Draug, you'll make make an Admin with that attitude, try and be nice like Yebellz then you're in with a shout.....

Don't want to be a mod, much less an admin. It's too restricting and you can't tell people to fuck off.

I think you doth protest too much.....

Nope. Just honest. Don't want the job.

No one was offering you the job

OK, what about Romneys running mate then?

I would love to hear the VP tell somebody to fuck off and call the Iranians a bunch of fucktards.

yebellz stop abusing your power by bullying the Forums idol and superhero

Draugnar for President of Egypt

There he goes again...

@Yebellz - Fuck off. Nigee suggested it in gest. I answered him. So you can kiss my smelly white ass.

Based on a bunch of personal experience tracking down people trying to be annoying in various ways on teh intrawebs (I've moderated messageboards and online games in the past), I can say with almost 100% certainty that people would be more likely to cheat in press than in gunboat, especially with phases over 5 minutes. Five minute phase press is too short for most (not all, but most) people to multi. And five minute phase gunboat would be similarly difficult to many people without some level of NMR'ing, which then messes up the purpose of multi'ing.

Why cheat in press rather than gunboat? One of the biggest drivers for cheating is not an urge to win, but an urge to get away with something. The more obvious you are about your cheating, the less likely you are to get away with it, so a person who is cheating will often try to go about the most complicated methods possible, such as creating distinct personalities for each of their accounts and responding to press from each at different times.

A gunboat is a trap game for someone who is multi'ing, especially a low pot gunboat, because people who are new or don't understand how the game works will complain about multi'ing in almost every one of them. Which will usually launch some form of investigation, even a cursory one. Anyone who's been on the site any length of time and wants to multi KNOWS they must have their shit together if they're going to do it in a gunboat, since there WILL be a flag. Most cheaters aren't THAT confident of their ability to not get caught, so they'll go the safer option of press.

Yebellz it was a joke ....... lighten up !!

I don't want him to lighten up. I want him to come out and defend his attack now that he is an admin and should be above this shit. I want to expose him for the fucking asshole that he is.

Please don't forget the incredible gift he has with children and animals..... the guy has a heart and soul, he has feelings

Feelings and hearts and souls are for women and children. Real men don't have hearts nor souls. We just have blackholes that suck the life out of everything around us and a desire to dominate and rule the world! Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

No, I think he's Metrosexual....

Ah, I just woke up from a long night of playing Diablo 3 and I get this little extra present on WebDip. Since we are in the spirit of giving, here's me giving my two cents:

1. Multis are just as likely to play gunboat as they do full press. Don't like gunboat? That's fine, but please refrain from telling us that it's not Diplomacy or that it has more cheaters and so forth.
2. Yebellz has been an excellent mod since I've been one, and I fully support his "promotion" to admin, although this just means more work and having to deal more with *you know what* from *you know who.*
3. Yebellz didn't ban Agent K. That was me. I'm a trigger-happy banhammering jackass. And you are welcome.
4. We, the royal we, don't give a Tinker's damn about Draugnar's accusation and outcry. Yebellz doesn't have to defend himself. There was an issue and it was dealt with.
5. Here's something new to bitch over, hummm I mean discuss. Over the next few weeks, we are probably going to decide on the policy of cancelling games. Refer to rokokoma's thread(s) for further info.
6. I don't have anything else, but this is a perfect place to stop.

@zukltar -

3. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you!
4. Tell yebellz to kiss my ass then as he commented as if I was turning down an offered psition like the fucking jackass he is. He shoudl have kept his fucking mouth shut as Nigee made a joke and I responded in kind. It was none of his fucking business.

It honestly read as a joke from yebellz where I was sitting, but dunno if you guys have history or what.

That yebellz has got it in for you Draug, your cards are marked mate, your days are numbered !!

It read like a slap in the face to me considering the other thread.

Some are just not very smart...This is my favorite: gameID=87219.

Yes, it was a joke on my end. I suppose I should have attached some sort of emoticon such as ;P to make that intent more obvious.

My apologies if I have deeply offended you, Draugnar.

Apology accepted and please accept my apology in return. I took it wrong and should have just ignored it. Sorry, dude.

Nice bromance there

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................................................

what i really want to know is how many multis really are in this site,we talk about like it was really a big problem,but some how it feels smaller in reality.
most of the games i play are low pots and no pw,we had some multis in part of the games and i guess some of them didnt got discovered,but it doesnt seem to be a very diferent result to the game anyway.
what i mean is that a certain percentage of crime can be aloud without afecting too much.and they get discovered sooner or later,so the same percentage of "criminals" will be active in the site most of the time.
if it is really a problem of low pots and unpasworded games ,in my opinion is a self-solution problem(fix itself)because usualy they dont get to greater games or they leave the aditional acount and stop using it as they escalate biger pots.
it easy to complain about multis and metas when you lose but its not true that it can only ruin you game,sometimes it is good for you and bad to your enemies.
new players can learn alot from this situations(nmr,cd,banned,etc)cause it changes the game and make them change strats and aliances.
when me and my friends were playing the board,almost always someone needed to go,so his nation was cd,and many times f2f causes some of the players to make aliances for reasons outside the game.
the mods are doing a great job!

Some multis are really easy to sniff out. Those are the same ones that aren't tactically wise either. It's the ones that aren't that are usually an experienced player who has done it for a long time and knows how to hide it. That's the real problem in my opinion.