Actually, because you were defeated it shows up as a defeat on your record not a resign. Don't feel too bad. It happens. I lost power last time I played a live game, and missed some phases. Stuff happens haha

We'll just use this for the EOG:

Jesus Christ France and Russia, why didn't you Eliminate England? I was going to draw with the two of you before the guy took over, but I didn't want to draw with someone who didn't deserve it. Which was the reason I didn't draw for like an hour in that game.

Just as well I turned up to take your position - game drawn - no worries

no problem, man. stuff happens in live games.

gg all. sorry we wouldn't cut down to 3, turkey, but i don't think it was safe (good call in the end, france)

If I hadn't turned you would have won - I think I deserve my place

I was really pissed that someone took over England. I was going to draw with the two of you - You set up a stalemate and deserved the draw. But it pisses me off that someone got a "draw" out of that game just for taking over the position.

No, I wouldn't have. I was going to draw. You deserved absolutely nothing. Because that's what you did.

for instance, swe-nor supported by stp/fin succeeds, nor retreats to ska, and suddenly we have serious problems re: den/swe/nor.

we made far more work of that than we should have, though. imo f/r should have eliminated england much earlier before t got to northern stalemate line, but f didn't go for that for some reason

Yeah, I was really pissed about England. Like. Really pissed. I considered dragging it out, but from the way everyone was playing, honestly, I didn't think you were smart enough to figure out what I was saying to do anyway.

well to be fair :), there was no way we could have known you wanted to draw after you got stp. i was grateful at the time that a new england came, as if he hadn't i assumed our hard-faught stalemate would be lost.

I considered giving France some Italian SC's so that you wouldn't be scared of the solo. But I was just so pissed I pressed the draw button just to get it over with.

The game was a clear draw when I joined, I thought I was doing F/R a favor.

Why didn't you retreat out of Finland?

also, withdrawing from a stalemate line is the oldest trick in the book to break it, and as stated above i don't think it was safe to cut england out. i at least wasn't going to touch norway without more french fleets to finish off edi/liv. way too much to go wrong, especialy the way france had been playing, so even though i guessed you might just want to cut the draw, i didn't think it was a good gamble.

Well it wasn't safe yet. I could have made it safer, but I was just pissed, like I said. I didn't think anyone was understanding me anyway.

@Tom, Jmeyersd, thank for the kind words. My connection is back, as you can see :) I'm very glad my record is still clean.

@☺: Why did you play on after so many NMRs? Both Austria and Italy went into CD at the perfect time for you. With so much luck, it can hardly be considered an achievement to obtain a three-way. And I know you're not in it for the points/GR.

Regarding taking out the English: before my CD, I had made sure Russia&France couldn't take me out without at least some effort, and me having the possibility of throwing the win to Turkey. I was on 4 centers, and neither Russia or France had enough fleets to send my way.

oh yea of little faith :)
but it seems we agree that it wasn't safe, so what's the problem. sometimes you just have to holdyour hands up and say "good job getting to the line" and settle for the four-way. but like i said earlier, it shouldn't have gotten to that point, as france should've helped finish england earlier, thus avoiding this problem.

As a matter of fact, now that I review the position (spring 1910), it seems easier to take Russia out than England. The central German centers are very easy to take by force, much easier than Nwy/Stp.

However, with France playing like he did (not very well in my opinion), both these scenarios were impossible.

@ bas: Yeah. I figured that would be asked.

If there's a single NMR or CD, I always vote draw/cancel. I put it on before S01 was up, and I left it on until A03. But I'm not going to play 40 minutes of a game, only to draw or cancel because of CD's. If you want to end the game because of CD's, do it when the *first cd happens*, not after you know you're not the one benefiting from them.

And I would have drawn at any point had it been just France, Russia and myself, the only powers that didn't NMR. Frankly, I didn't feel like you deserved it, given your repeated NMRing. I understand the internet issues now, but from my perspective, it just looked like you didn't care about the game.

@ bas:

Yeah, I think everyone can agree France's play was terrible. His refusal to vote draw/cancel early in the game was another reason I didn't want to draw.

Okay, that sounds reasonable. I remember Italy and France being the only ones withholding on the cancel.

You're right, I did not deserve my spot in the draw. During the game, I was mostly trying to get my connection smoothed out. Which didn't work until fifteen minutes after my CD...

France player here

1. Basvano - you were cd from game start so your peanut gallery worth is zero. Thanks GG.

2. Regarding England - In most of the early game it appeared Turkey and Russia were working together while italy was also exploding, I couldnt take england without letting italy come my way unchecked and once he returned he was doing a good job of keeping the russians at bay.

3. Why was my play so terrible? I held the line and unlike some countries that ended in the draw I wasnt handed my victory by opportune CDs and an ally (russia) that basically gave you his entire gains for nothing but a stalemate line draw.

4. Turkey - Don't even try to sell that lemon of a line. At no point did it look like you were anywhere even considering some sort of draw Mr 17 SCs.

5. The only reason I didnt draw was because turkey and italy didnt do so. So don't call the kettle black.

I had draw/cancel on for a full six seasons before I took it off. And you can believe me or not, but you're just being rude, diplomancer, and I really have nothing to say to that.

How am I being rude? I was counterpointing all the supposed arguments that were brought up for my "terrible play" so I guess if I don't agree with you its rude?

1-2. I played the English pieces from F1901 until S1910. The replacement only stepped in when the stalemate line ahd already been built.

3. You did not have a clear goal in mind, that's what's wrong with your play (in this particular game at least). It's a WTA game, so the only thing that matters is how many people share the eventual draw. From 1910 until the end, you were playing cluelessly, trying to score some cheap centers (Denmark?) and pushing against a solid, well-known stalemate line in Ion. Meanwhile you could have worked to eliminate England. If you and Turkey had communicated this more clearly, England would have been dead.

4. Turkey did retreat all his forces from Tunis, and Munich/Berlin. Quite a clear message, I would say. Although in his position I would have retreated from Stp as well.

5. In F1901, when two countries went into Cd, ☺ was among the first to vote draw/cancel. You never had a cancel vote issued.

"you were cd from game start so your peanut gallery worth is zero. Thanks GG."

"Don't even try to sell that lemon of a line"

"unlike some countries"

I could find more, but I think that's suffices. There's no need to be sarcastic in an EOG. And there's no reason I'd be lying. I did truly intend to draw after England CDed. If you don't believe me, fine, but you can find a more polite way of saying it.

If you'd like to have a mature discussion about instances where we think each other made mistakes, I'd be happy to do it. That's what an EOG is for.

@ bas:

Ahem. I voted cancel in S01. :-P

You did? That's quite classy (no sarcasm). I wish more players acted like that.

In that case, I withdraw all my initial speculations about you trying to score a cheap victory.

Seriously? So despite not even acknowledging what weight my argument has you are going to write it off because some is calling your bluff and also pointing out the fact that you were put into a primary win spot nearly entirely on the CD's of Austria and Italy while at the same time you took russia's home SCs and he proceeded to do nothing but head my way about it? The only rude part of that was perhaps my line to Bas, in which case I am sorry I know stuff happens so apology accepted. But honestly Smiley stop it with your passive aggressive kumbaiyah crap. If that was rude to you I hope you never encounter anyone in the outside world, man up my friend.

"So despite not even acknowledging what weight my argument has you are going to write it off because some is calling your bluff and also pointing out the fact that you were put into a primary win spot nearly entirely on the CD's of Austria and Italy while at the same time you took russia's home SCs and he proceeded to do nothing but head my way about it?"

I'm not disagreeing with you. I absolutely benefited from the CD's. And I've already explained why I didn't vote draw or cancel in light of that. If you have something else you'd like to add to the discussion though, feel free.

and also I was waiting for italy to call a cancel or a draw and so would I, just for the record.

So then given my situation smiley, how did I play so terrible for you to have said it several times through out this thread? I legit want to know so I can play a better game, but I also want honest reasons that take my entire situation into account. Not just "JESUS CHRIST WHY DIDNT FRANCE TAKE ENGLAND"

and to bas whose comments I just read. I was trying to move into denmark not for cheap supply centers... It was spring btw, but so that I could move into the baltic and help dislodge the turkish line. And I had turkey pushing on me, I was holding the southern stalemate line, while I remember a certain british player taking scs from the russians which had they lost another unit would have cost us the line.

Also the line about WTA being all about draws is INCREDIBLY disheartening.

I guess I am also the only one to see that destroying the british would break our northern stalemate...

@ diplomancer:

WTA is a far higher proportion of draws, but certainly not all draws. And a draw is the ideal outcome of the game...

Re: Your play: It should have been obvious from '05 that I was the threat to solo. At that point, you should have sent all your fleets after me. Had you sent that fleet in Spain at me instead of North (The only thing it ultimately did was capture an irrelevant German center) you would have stalemated me far sooner. And had I played it correctly (I had a chance to break in A09 by moving GoL > WM and taking Tunis, I think, but I didn't see it until later. Also the move to Alb in A08 was a misorder that also may have cost me a solo, but it's hard to tell.)

The only reason to send a fleet North at that point would have been to eliminate England, which I would have applauded. But you didn't do that. You kept fighting Russia, quite inexplicably, instead of making peace. And I have no idea why Russia just gave all his centers to one unit. But I wasn't about to argue. Well. I kind of do. I think he was trying to secure himself a spot in the stalemate line, so that he would be essential.

Pie > Tus in Spring 08 was also a mistake, imo. When I got into Pie and knew I could take Mars, I thought the line was broken for sure. And it would have been, had I not misordered/missed my shot at Tunis. :-/ But everyone makes mistakes though. I didn't see GoL > WM at the time, just like I'm sure you didn't see Tyr > Pie.

And I could be wrong, but I don't think you ever understood why I was withdrawing from the stalemate line. Perhaps you did, like Russia, and you just felt it was too risky. But I was withdrawing so that you could too. Had I kept going, and even given you a center or two, I don't think you would have turned around, which is what I was trying to get you to do. You had the stalemate, and there was no reason to advance any beyond that. You had five fleets on the stalemate line, and only needed four - you could have signaled to me that you understood by moving one back and up toward England. Then we could have gotten it to a three way - a three way between three partners that actually deserved the draw.

There was something else that I noticed as I was going through the game, but I forget what it is now.

There's a sentence I never finished up there. But I meant to say that I would have soloed had I played it correctly.

Well to be perfectly honest I didnt know what you and Russia were upto and him giving himself to you like that made me strongly suspicious of a meta connection especially given the ridiculously opportune cds of austria and italy. I didnt think Russia was going to stop until much later. Do not take this as an accusation, I made none it just looked like it might be the case at the time. So it looks like we all made mistakes and that much of our strategy talk is dependent on variables and intentions that none of us could have guessed. I am also not all that apologetic for letting england survive, he shielded my north valiantly for a long time while not tempting to get involved in my SCs. I guess its all a matter of perspective.

"Do not take this as an accusation, I made none it just looked like it might be the case at the time."

Yeah, I don't. *I* was worried people would think it was a multi. Lol.

heh, looks like i missed out on some good discussion.

anyway, glancing through the posts, it seems there are some questions about my abandoning the homeland to the Turk. I thought it was my only viable line really. It was apparent early on that France & Turkey were going to be in the drivers' seats, and once Turkey took Rumania (tbh I had kinda hoped he would wait on that for a bit), I figured that the southern front was untenable. And, with the northern front going well, it seemed logical to pursue that. I was disappointed when France swung south instead of north, but with Austria gone and Italy sandwiched, it was obvious to me that Turkey was da boss in the south and my winning chances were gone.
Hence, I went for the draw.
Since I had STP/NOR, I wanted to encourage a strong T as opposed to F as that would make me essential. So I attacked F hoping T would then boss him in the Med (which he did). And I found myself with a strong central front, so rather than withdraw SIL/PRU (the only way to make any stand in Russia at all) and wait to be slowly gobbled up, I maintained my 7 and ensured the place in the draw. Seemed to work out ok, so I'm not quite sure what people disagree with. Would be interested to hear, though.

I do think France should have supported me against a weak England, though, and not the other way around.

I figured (and I think said so) that's what you were doing jmeyersd. I don't blame you at all, and I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. :-)

I agree with what you said about England though. France should have started helping you to eliminate him around '05. Would have been easy - especially with all the NMR's.

ah, i see where you said that now. the question had been raised by others, though.
once again it seems we agree. woulda been a piece of cake to get rid of E but instead we let him hang around and get himself on the line. oh well.
gg

I have to agree in hind sight that what you did was the wisest of options given what happened. Ugh miscommunication.. I am still new to gunboat and it's frustrating nuances!

Some of your moves are more understandable then, dipomancer. Don't be discouraged, it's a really challenging variant, and once you learn the nuances, it's a lot of fun. My advice would be to always try and see things from other people's perspective, and to ask yourself what you would do in their situation and why they might be doing what they're doing.