The last process time was over 12 minutes ago (at 07:21 PM UTC); the server is not processing games until the cause is found and games are given extra time.

Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 722 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
trip (696 D(B))
17 Mar 11 UTC
Gunboat Means Never Having to Say You're Sorry
48 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
Ancient Med Live
7 replies
Open
mr.crispy (0 DX)
18 Mar 11 UTC
So quiet
you know, on a friday night I would have totally expected more people here on diplomacy, there's only 4 other people online hahaha... WHERE IS EVERYBODY!
11 replies
Open
MODS UNPLAUSE THIS GAME PLEASE
HE TOLD U GUYS TO PAUSE THIS GAME AND HE WAS THE ONLY ONE ME AND THE OTHER PEOPLE WANT IT UPAUSED NOW
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53828
23 replies
Open
feartheroos (0 DX)
18 Mar 11 UTC
MODS UNPAUSE THIS GAME PLEASE
0 replies
Open
maltizok (787 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Mods Pause this live game please!
14 replies
Open
Chester (0 DX)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Game private
If anyone want to enter in a private game send me a message please.

gameID=53607
10 replies
Open
TrustMe (106 D)
13 Mar 11 UTC
2011 Masters, Needs more alternates
Please send me your userID (number), UserName via email to [email protected]. We have had several people drop out for various reasons and my list of alternates is about empty. We need 49 active players or this tournament cannot be run. Thanks for you help.
13 replies
Open
WhiteSammy (132 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Game Messages
What falls in this category and when are they tabulated?
4 replies
Open
Philalethes (100 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
The Best Techniques Are Passed on by the Survivors
Only three hours left and one spot- join the fun! :D
0 replies
Open
peter25 (0 DX)
18 Mar 11 UTC
We need for guys to join.
Please join to the game: "lets use the strength". Will start in two hours, minutes turns and the bet is 30. PLEASE JOIN.
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Japan Goes Nuclear
CNN is reporting that the last 50 workers have been recalled from the plant...that and a new fire...

Can this become Chernobyl II? And how is this going to affect the rest of the world, Japan being an economic power...
90 replies
Open
ginger (183 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
quick question
Is it possible for a unit to retreat to the region it was attacked from? (pretty sure I know the answer, just don't want to mess up)
3 replies
Open
IKE (3845 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
Fast gunboat- 12 hr phase
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53697
Not much time to join. Need 2 more people.
1 reply
Open
curtis (8870 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
Ancient Med Live
0 replies
Open
Эvalanche (100 D)
05 Mar 11 UTC
Anarchy
Do we need government?
327 replies
Open
Wolf89 (215 D)
14 Mar 11 UTC
EOG - Join only if you are talkative
The EOG statements for this game. see inside
15 replies
Open
miskin (106 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
Come on kids lets play
not in a bad way.
5 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
15 Mar 11 UTC
Study: Posting cheating accusations on the forum leads to death by lightning
NEW YORK (AP) -- Scientists at the NYC College of Technology have discovered that posting cheating accusations on the webdiplomacy forum increases the likelihood of the poster being struck by lightning 2500%.
46 replies
Open
thatonekid (0 DX)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Fast Gunboat-16
England, Fucking ready up
builds don't require 5 minutes
38 replies
Open
Mujus (1495 D(B))
17 Mar 11 UTC
gunboat 11-3-11 Question
I just checked out this game in the New listings, and it shows four players @200 each, but the total is @1000. What kind of new math is that? I signed up just for a minute to see if the total would adjust, but with me there were five total players and the total showed @1200. There's an extra @200 there. Anyone have an explanation?
11 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Mar 11 UTC
Resolved order outputs?
Weird, it can only be 4 lines. I'll post the rest in a reply a guess...
8 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
New Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53685
PPSC, 24 Hour turns, Classic Map, all chat types allowed, 5 point buy-in, game starts in 48 hours, "Ready, not Save"
0 replies
Open
baumhaeuer (245 D)
02 Mar 11 UTC
The Seperation of Church and State...
...is good! And I'm Christian. Details inside. I'm starting my own thread, though, I doubt anyone will really disagree with me. But still, you may find my thinking interesting. Almost none of it is original with me.
Page 9 of 9
FirstPreviousNextLast
 
You know what, fuck it, Ill go goose stepping with the rest of my field while you fight the good fight for angry young men everywhere and use Wikipedia to solve the worlds ills. Have fun.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Wilentz used to actually be a leftist. Now he pals around with David Horowitz, bashing "evil commies"

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19866

Here's some gems from someone who is supposed to be on "my side".

"Wilentz: I'm not a "generic leftist" or a generic anything. I am on the masthead of Dissent and The New Republic. I don't feel uncomfortable holding the views I do about the current anti-war movement and being on those mastheads. (Wasn't Michael Walzer's piece in Dissent on "The Decent Left" cited approvingly earlier on in this symposium?) There: I've taken pause. Since I'm not and never have been associated with the Communist clowns -- I consider them a political enemy -- I fail to see the point of my putting together a letter dissociating myself from them. I have criticized them pretty harshly in public. Saying that professed Communists are Communists isn't red-baiting: It's stating facts."

"Wilentz: It means that, as ever, Communist sects are extremely diligent and clever at mobilizing large numbers people to march in demonstrations by exploiting those peoples' concerns and hiding their own politics."

"Wilentz: Well, I'm not associated with this "peace" movement and don't support it. I agree that, coming out of a melange things written and done in the 1960's -- including, I note, David Horowitz's "Free World Colossus" -- the United States became, in many leftists' minds, a substitute for what the bourgeoisie was in Old Left thinking. It's a major mutation in left-wing thought, and it's out there, big time. And insofar as it is a major presumption of today's American left -- and I think it is -- I am appalled."

"Wilentz: It's no concession: Yes, American conservatives certainly helped us, and not the Communists, win the Cold War. (Somewhere, I have praised Ronald Reagan for one of the most eloquent and effective human rights speeches of the era, when he stood before the Berlin Wall.) So did -- I think David will agree -- American liberals, from Truman on. And so did many other Americans whom I find more difficult to classify, from George Kennan to Al Shanker. It was a trans-partisan effort.

As for Bush, bin Laden, etc., I give Bush high marks for ousting the Taliban. I admire David's confidence in his own certainty that a President Gore would have responded less effectively to the terrorist atrocities, but I don't share either his confidence or his certainty. For the record, I think Nicaragua in the 1980s was actually the point where a number of leftists in and around Dissent wised up, as discussed in George Packer's recent New York Times piece on today's liberal hawks."

Haha, yes, supporting the terrorist war of the Contras was a good idea, according to Wilentz the leftist

"Wilentz: I was referring to Dissent writers such as Paul Berman (yes, David, I know he's a nemesis of yours) who became sharp critics of the Sandinista regime in the 1980s, and to some of the other latter-day liberal hawks profiled by Packer."




Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"You know what, fuck it, Ill go goose stepping with the rest of my field while you fight the good fight for angry young men everywhere and use Wikipedia to solve the worlds ills. Have fun."

That's right, I'm obviously the angry one in this exchange. Sorry I didn't shut up after you invoked your expertise and expected me to bow. I guess I hurt your feelings?

Incidentally, here's a review of Wilentz's Jackson tome, judge for yourselves, or let Clausowitz's know-it-all hissy fits intimidate you. Either way.

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=democratic_storytelling
Thanks for the article from Alan Taylor (which discusses a completely different book that you discussed before) stating pretty much exactly what I've said about Wilentz's view of Jackson from the start, not too bad considering Taylors interest in Native Americans. No where does Taylor show Wilentz as a right wing hack, in fact he counts him as a liberal several times, his point from the beginning, low and behold, is that Wilentz focuses too much on Jackson's political innovations "Jacksonian Democracy" and not enough on Taylor's interest, American Indian policy and Indian removal.

Also, just in case Wikipedia didn't fill you in, this book is not about Jackson, it is a synthesis of American History from Republic the Early to the Civil War.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Wilentz's view of Jackson is "yeah he might have committed genocide and been a white supremacist, but hey he was against the national bank, so positives outweigh the negatives"

That's called rehabilitation, genius. The review talks about Wilentz's view of Jackson, as you even admit. He's written multiple books trying to portray Jackson as some kind of champion of labor, building off the old "liberal" Schlesinger pro-Jackson view, but acknowledging Indian removal and slavery as bad things. The dominant view of Jackson among the so-called "radical" historians is that Jackson was nothing to be celebrated, and in fact inspires the Old Right more than the progressive left. Wilentz, the Democratic Party hack, is taking aim that view. That's called rehabilitation if there ever was such a thing.

I never said Wilentz was a rightwing hack, although he's a terrorist supporting anti-communist. I'm simply saying the guy is about as "liberal" as Tony Blair, although probably more hawkish.

To me, leftwing means something more specific than "left of John McCain". Wilentz is not leftwing, not in the slightest.

To do this handwaving about how it's "not about Jackson" is utterly disingenuous but not unexpected.

And keeping banging on that wikipedia canard. Keep shaking that tree. I do like how you ignored the Frontpage Magazine interview. Good for you. More honest debate techniques from someone who demands such rigor from his opponents.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"hanks for the article from Alan Taylor (which discusses a completely different book that you discussed before) stating pretty much exactly what I've said about Wilentz's view of Jackson from the start, not too bad considering Taylors interest in Native Americans."

Like where you said Jackson wasn't being rehabilitated by Wilentz? Yeah, except read the damn title of the review. That'd be the opposite of what you were saying. Thanks.

Also, read Tom Mertes review in New Left Review. It's called "whitewashing Jackson". Weird how if Wilentz wasn't rehabilitating Jackson/whitewashing his crimes, so many on the left seem to think so.

New Left Review 42, November-December 2006

Tom Mertes on Sean Wilentz, Andrew Jackson. A retouched portrait of the Democrat founding father—minus Indian massacres, slave exploitation and financial bubble.
Save a PDF file Send an email Print article
TOM MERTES

WHITEWASHING JACKSON

Reviewing the wave of political upheavals around 1830 that overthrew the Bourbons in France, detached Belgium from the Netherlands, secured Catholic emancipation to Ireland, brought the Reform Bill to England and unleashed civil wars in Spain and Portugal, in his Age of Revolution Eric Hobsbawm saw the most radical popular advance of the time in the election of Andrew Jackson as President of the United States. Viewed comparatively, two landmarks of his presidency stand out. The electorate of 1828 that put Jackson into power, with a record 56 per cent of the vote, was by far the largest in history: over a million strong, it was three times the size of the American turnout in 1824. The mobilization that produced this majority, moreover, was the work of the first modern mass political party. The second development was more original than the first, but together they spelt a lasting transformation of American democracy, of whose importance posterity has never doubted. The reputation of the man personifying this change remains far more contested. In his own day, Jackson was hailed by many as a heroic democrat, the beau ideal of a self-made man who rose to the nation’s highest post as a foe of social privilege and slayer of the ‘monster bank’, saviour of the nation and fearless champion of the people. Others saw him as ‘King Andrew’, a divisive tyrant driven by petty personal prejudices, contemptuous of the law of the land and merciless to the weak, who debauched government with a spoils system and destroyed the nation’s prosperity with a fixation on hard money.

The facts of Jackson’s career are stark enough. He was born in 1767 of poor Scots-Irish parents, immigrants from Ulster, in the former lands of the Catawba peoples, where North and South Carolina meet—an area well known for its opposition to the eastern elites. At the age of fourteen, he served the insurgents against George III. Captured by the British, he was slashed with a sword-blow by an officer, leaving a declivity in his skull for which Jackson never forgave them. For the rest of his life, he continued to believe that they wanted to retake the continent. Becoming increasingly obstreperous after his mother’s death soon afterwards, he frittered away a sudden inheritance from a grandfather in Ireland, but learned enough law to get himself appointed by a drinking companion as a prosecutor in the frontier zone of Tennessee—not yet a state—at the age of twenty-one. En route to Tennessee, he purchased his first woman slave. Like many later ambitious presidents, he then moved up the social and political ladder through marriage to the daughter of a state surveyor and land speculator. Jackson rose swiftly on the frontier as a cotton planter, speculator and slave trader. In his early thirties, he became Tennessee’s first Congressman, and a year later was briefly Senator, before quitting for a lucrative job as a circuit judge back home.

However, Jackson’s real political breakthrough came from the camp, not the courtroom. A trigger-happy brawler, duellist and warmonger, who had long itched for military command, he got his chance in 1812, when war broke out with Britain. Ordered south by Madison to block any danger of Indian insurgents linking up with British forces or the Spanish in Florida, he crushed a small Creek rising, unleashing a proverbial hatred for the enemy with an exemplary massacre, and was allowed to dictate terms of surrender that confiscated more than half of Creek lands—territory covering most of today’s Alabama and a sizeable part of Georgia—regardless of whether or not the population had fought against him. Soon afterwards, Jackson cemented his military fame with a successful defence of New Orleans against an assault by British regulars, a battle fought—unknown to both sides—as the ink was already dry on the Treaty of Ghent that concluded the war. Nonetheless, he was widely feted as a second Washington, who had saved the nation—after the humiliation of the torching of the White House by Admiral Cockburn’s forces—in its second ordeal against Britain.

Now a full General, and appointed the US military commander in the South, Jackson made sure he stayed in the limelight with a series of annexations and lunges beyond the Union’s borders. In these years, he pioneered operations of ethnic cleansing. Explaining that whites and Indians could not coexist in peaceful proximity to one another, he implemented the transfer of thousands of Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws and Creeks beyond the Mississippi, nominally in compensation for the loss of their lands to the east, in practice with widespread loss of their lives as well. In 1818, on the pretext of a punitive expedition against the Seminoles, without any constitutional declaration of war he seized Florida from Spain, summarily hanging a couple of stray Britons for good measure, with Cuba as his intended next stop—actions that caused a storm in Washington, but were eventually covered, leading to the satisfactory detachment of the peninsula from Madrid with the Adams–Onís Treaty of 1819. With more dead Indians and more land, Jackson’s star climbed ever higher in the political sky.

By 1824 he was poised to run for President. The Republican Party created by Jefferson, still overwhelmingly dominant, was split between competing regional contenders—Adams from the Northeast, Clay from the West, Crawford and Calhoun from the South—allowing Jackson to enter an evenly divided race, in which he won more popular votes than any of his opponents. But because the Electoral College was unable to muster a majority, the election was thrown to the House of Representatives, where Henry Clay, who detested Jackson as a lawless adventurer, swung the presidency to Adams—who then appointed Clay Secretary of State. Capitalizing on this ‘corrupt bargain’, and casting himself as a fearless outsider challenging an iniquitous establishment, four years later Jackson won by a landslide.

Once in power, Jackson’s first priorities were a purge of the civil service to install his supporters at all levels of the federal bureaucracy, and more sweeping measures of ethnic cleansing, rammed through Congress with the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Next came an assault on the country’s proto-central bank, the congressionally chartered but privately owned Second Bank of America, viewed by Jackson as a citadel of monopoly wealth and improper political influence. This was a hugely popular campaign against the ‘monied interest’ that helped him win a resounding second term in 1832, when the rallying power of the newly created Democratic Party machine, the country’s first mass political organization, came into full play; in 1828, Jackson had headed a faction, but by 1832 he could count on the support of Party conclaves across the country at state and local levels. His final years in office saw him embroiled in tariff disputes with South Carolina, efforts to censor abolitionist mail to the South, and a speculative bubble that burst soon after his exit. Of more lasting significance, Texas was prised away from Mexico, if without Jackson himself being able to annex it, and mass deportation and death visited on ever larger numbers of indigenous people. His immediate legacy was secured by the election of Van Buren, his long-time political manager and lieutenant, in 1836, and—in a more emphatic sense—by that of his Tennessee client James Polk in 1844, arguably the most successful expansionist in US history.

Jackson polarized American opinion in his own lifetime, and has divided historians ever since. Sean Wilentz’s portrait of him, produced for a series edited by Arthur Schlesinger, draws heavily on his recent Rise of American Democracy (2005), of which—Jackson looming larger than either Jefferson or Lincoln—it can be regarded as a biographical distillation. ‘Old Hickory’ does not lend himself easily to political hagiography, but Wilentz has shown himself capable of rising to the occasion. Well-regarded in the eighties as the author of Chants Democratic, a radical study of the early industrial working class in New York in the tradition of Edward Thompson, in recent years Wilentz has caught the public eye for the intensity of his identification with the Democratic Party, and its last president. A ‘family friend’ of Clinton and intimate of his courtier Sidney Blumenthal, whose apologia for the President he vetted, Wilentz shot to prominence with an impassioned address to the House of Representatives, in which he warned that to impeach the incumbent would ‘leave the Presidency permanently disfigured and diminished, at the mercy as never before of the caprices of any Congress’; ‘the Presidency, historically the centre of leadership during our great national ordeals, will be crippled in meeting the inevitable challenges of the future’. Even the New York Times found him excessive. Extolling Clinton for launching the Balkan War—‘the first US President to stop a genocide’—Wilentz has since explained to Rolling Stone that his successor (notwithstanding ‘high marks for ousting the Taliban’) is the worst president in American history. Modern Republicanism, indeed, is a toxic descendant of the very party that was created to frustrate Jackson’s Democracy, the Whigs of the 1830s and 1840s. With these retrojections, the scene is set for an update of the man they vilified. The onset and outcome of an American epic become joined in a time-warped loop, as Wilentz’s outbursts at detractors of Jackson—‘losers’ literature’—match fulminations at critics of Clinton at the other end of the Democratic narrative: the former’s ‘forceful style’ establishing ‘the foundations of the modern democratic presidency’ menaced by the impeachment of the latter.

Wilentz’s central argument is that Jackson had a coherent body of political ideas that underpinned his decision-making process. He was a complete Jeffersonian in his distaste for excessive government expenditure, his belief in spreading the nation ever-westward, his support of the ‘common [naturally white] man’, strict construction of the Constitution, suspicion to the point of paranoia of the ‘monied interest’, and the idea that the federal government should not create or protect elite privileges. His great achievement was to govern the nation in the spirit of these popular principles. ‘Democracy’s ascendancy was Jackson’s greatest triumph’, as Wilentz puts it—‘the supreme reason why his legacy retains its lustre’. Formulated in this simplistic way, the claim is quite empty. The expansion of the American electorate preceded Jackson, who himself did nothing to enlarge it. His presidency responded to changes such as the opening of the franchise to all white adult males in almost all of the states, the hardening of separate spheres for men and women, the rise of labour organization and, of course, religious revival—it did not create them. The central innovation of his presidency lay elsewhere, in the construction of a modern political machine capable of integrating the popular forces unleashed by these developments, against the background of the wide-ranging cultural transformation of the period that Charles Sellers has called the ‘Market Revolution’. The actual architect of the ascendant Democratic Party, however, was Van Buren rather than Jackson, who had neither the same organizational gifts nor interests. Intellectually, on the other hand, Jackson was the more radical of the two—envisaging, at least at the outset, a series of major alterations to the Constitution: abolition of the Electoral College and direct elections of senators and the federal judiciary. It is significant, however, that these got nowhere. Jackson never campaigned for democratic reforms to the political system. His leadership was essentially plebiscitary: the appeal of a military strongman. By temperament a natural autocrat, he fitted the role well, unlike the political generals—Harrison, Grant, Eisenhower—who followed him.

Nor was Jackson’s economic legacy in itself very substantial. His attack on the Second Bank was fed by his conviction that, as Wilentz puts it,

improper activist government meant granting privileges to unaccountable monied men on the make as well as to those already well established. Sound, restrained government meant ending those privileges and getting the wealthy off the backs of ordinary Americans, ‘the humble members of society’.

But, combining suspicion of federal banking with a dislike of paper currency, he had no coherent alternative as a system of popular credit in mind. The result was a zigzag to chaos in his second mandate, as he redistributed federal deposits to ‘pet’ state banks, leaving an antagonized Second Bank in competition with them. This produced an inflationary bubble as loans for land sales and other speculative investments multiplied. Even Wilentz concedes the ‘enormous government-sponsored land racket’ that ensued, over which Jackson in practice presided. Belatedly, however, his administration, in principle committed to hard money, started to require all payments for land in specie. This was a key contributing factor in the subsequent financial collapse, only just held off till he left office (here was a genuine analogy with Clinton).

Jackson’s blunderbuss approach to opponents led to no clearer results in the other major economic conflict of his tenure, over the tariff of 1828. Increasing the price of foreign goods, this hit the Southern states much harder than the North, because with little manufacturing they were more import-dependent. The South felt, correctly, that it was paying for the protection of Northern manufacturing and the development of Northern infrastructure. South Carolina, with the most slaves per capita in the Union, took the lead in opposing the tariff, eventually electing a convention that declared it in contravention of the state’s sovereignty, and thus void. Thundering against this threat to the Union, Jackson sent the navy to Charleston harbour to demonstrate federal resolve in tax-collection, and got a ‘Force Bill’ through Congress giving him the right to attack those arrayed against him, if their defiance persisted. At Clay’s instigation, however, Congress watered down the tariff and the dispute petered out, each side claiming victory. Wilentz lauds Jackson for ‘fortitude and cunning’ in resolving the crisis, but the episode was in large part shadow-boxing. What lay behind it was a more intractable tension, between mounting hostility to slavery in the North and angry reaction to abolitionism in the South.

Here, naturally, Old Hickory acted to suppress criticism of the system on which his personal fortune was built. Jackson’s commitment to slavery—truculent like everything else about him—is an obvious embarrassment for Wilentz’s encomium, putting his hero’s reputation at risk with an important Democratic voting bloc today. But he is equal to the challenge. ‘It is easy to judge Jackson according to neo-abolitionist standards, to condemn him as slaveholder and, even further, as pro-slavery’, he writes, but ‘such verdicts, though, too often have more to do with the self-regarding sanctimony of posterity than they do with history’. No doubt Jackson was in his way a typical slave-owner, and ‘might even be counted as a pro-slavery man—except that, in the 1830s, the vast majority of white Americans, including the vast majority of anti-slavery northerners, blanched at the prospect of stirring a slave uprising’. The exculpation by bland non-sequitur is transparent. In Wilentz’s casting, Jackson was essentially moved by a commendable desire to preserve the unity of American democracy from sectional strife—a kind of rough-hewn Lincoln before his day.

Far greater exertions are required to burnish Jackson’s bid to construct a Herrenvolk republic free of Indians. Here Wilentz’s contortions are truly exemplary. His Jackson is a ‘sincere if unsentimental paternalist’, who simply wished for the good of the indigenous peoples, killing them only when ‘provoked’—though he lets slip a few pages earlier that he was a ‘fire-eating hater of unyielding Indians’. Yielding Indians were those who agreed to ‘voluntary’ removal from their ancestral lands, for their own protection, to ‘safe havens’ (Kurdistans for the 19th century?), so rescuing them from the ‘obliteration’ that would otherwise have befallen them. If these operations did not go quite as ‘smoothly and benevolently as Jackson had expected’, this was an unfortunate outcome he had in no way intended. His main fault lay only in too much financial rectitude. ‘Determined to minimize federal costs and extinguish the national debt’, he scanted on funds for ‘the care and protection of the relocated’. Criticisms of his actions at the time—to which Wilentz devotes only a few paragraphs, also understating the fierce resistance from the Indians themselves—were rife with hypocrisy and pseudo-philanthropy, unable to see, as Jackson did, that the existence of independent sovereign nations like the Cherokees was unconstitutional. Certainly, ‘in order to save the Indians, Jackson’s policy also destroyed thousands of them’, but to attack him unduly on these grounds is to ‘confuse tragedy with melodrama’.

In this repellent casuistry, systematically whitewashing a murderous programme of ethnic cleansing, that word stands out: tragedy. It recurs on page after page of unctuous euphemism. There were ‘numerous tragedies’ in Jackson’s presidency, ‘tragic limits’ to his outlook, and ‘tragic dimensions’ to his achievement. Even his stance on slavery was—‘ultimately’—tragic. The function of the term is not merely to absolve Jackson of central responsibility for the mass robbing and killing of his deportations, but to envelop these in a mantle of Shakespearean dignity. Michael Rogin’s still unparalleled portrait from 1975, Fathers and Children, leaves one in no doubt of Jackson’s simultaneously patronizing and murderous policies towards his so-called ‘red children’. In contrast, after complaining of the sanctimony of posterity, Wilentz ends his book by telling us that Jackson paved the way for the loftiest values of the present. ‘If his own standards of equality and justice fall beneath our own, he helped make it possible for today’s standards and expectations to be as elevated as they are’ (sic). It is a relief from such sickly stuff to turn to a more robust celebration of Jacksonianism as it historically was, and remains: Walter Russell Mead’s Special Providence. Its admiring portrait of a tough, xenophobic folk community, ruthless to outsiders or deserters, rigid in its codes of honour and violence, is equally but more truthfully present-minded. Another son of South Carolina, Mead identifies the Jacksonian strain in American political culture as the principal popular basis of support for the war on Iraq.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
The key paragraph is here, imagine if someone said this about Japanese internment today? What would you call it? Whitewashing? Rehabilitation? Probably not, huh.

"Far greater exertions are required to burnish Jackson’s bid to construct a Herrenvolk republic free of Indians. Here Wilentz’s contortions are truly exemplary. His Jackson is a ‘sincere if unsentimental paternalist’, who simply wished for the good of the indigenous peoples, killing them only when ‘provoked’—though he lets slip a few pages earlier that he was a ‘fire-eating hater of unyielding Indians’. Yielding Indians were those who agreed to ‘voluntary’ removal from their ancestral lands, for their own protection, to ‘safe havens’ (Kurdistans for the 19th century?), so rescuing them from the ‘obliteration’ that would otherwise have befallen them. If these operations did not go quite as ‘smoothly and benevolently as Jackson had expected’, this was an unfortunate outcome he had in no way intended. His main fault lay only in too much financial rectitude. ‘Determined to minimize federal costs and extinguish the national debt’, he scanted on funds for ‘the care and protection of the relocated’. Criticisms of his actions at the time—to which Wilentz devotes only a few paragraphs, also understating the fierce resistance from the Indians themselves—were rife with hypocrisy and pseudo-philanthropy, unable to see, as Jackson did, that the existence of independent sovereign nations like the Cherokees was unconstitutional. Certainly, ‘in order to save the Indians, Jackson’s policy also destroyed thousands of them’, but to attack him unduly on these grounds is to ‘confuse tragedy with melodrama’."
jesus, christ, it doesn't end.

He focuses on Jacksonian Democracy as Taylor said and as I said and issues of class rather than issues of Race and Gender. Scroll up its all there. I can't believe you are arguing about a book you have never read, in a field that you have no background in or historiographical knowledge of by simply posting reviews, in one case ONLY READING THE TITLE AND NOT READING THE REVIEW!!!!!

Who the fuck is Tom Mertes? you know him? Seems like you talk about a guy who has made no contributions to the field as if he was your best pal and a household. No one else in the field does. But yes, congrats, you have found a New Leftist's perspective.

No matter how many Wikipedia articles you read, no matter how many reviews you post, no matter what google brings you, you still dont know anything about the field, this is just confirming how much of an insufferable wind bag you are
also, in case you were wondering, the fact that his Jackson works are "in the news" have nothing to do with their popularity compared to Chants Democratic. They merely were written in the 2000s which allows you to google their reviews and regurgitate them passing it off as knowledge. Harder to do that in 1984 which is why you believe the book is less "well known."
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
I knew all you'd do is shout wikipedia forty times. Predictable. I did read the review. You just read what you want to read.

"Second, he insists that democracy for white men should trump the setbacks for blacks, Indians, and women as the headline story for the 19th century. He prefers to see democracy for some as leading eventually to democracy for all, writing that “[a] momentous rupture occurred between Thomas Jefferson's time and Abraham Lincoln's that created the lineaments of modern democratic politics.”

'Yes Jackson was bad for blacks and Indians, but hey he did good things for white workers."

How is that different than what I said? And why is the title somehow not important, since you claimed Wilentz is not rehabilitating Jackson?

But please keep on invoking your 'expertise' and shouting me down with WIKIPEDIA WIKIPEDIA WIKIPEDIA. Easier than addressing the point.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Why do you guys insist on wasting so much of your personal time arguing hot-headedly about inconsequential issues that neither of you will change each other's opinion on?
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
I don't think this issue is inconsequential.
The answer is that Putin continues to argue points that he has no clue about as I notice he continually does. He pisses me off further by dragging debates into minutia (directly in my field and sub discipline) that he again knows nothing about but cites online sources that he does not understand as well, while misquoting me (I never said Wilentz wasn't rehabilitating Jackson's image, I said he was focusing on his impact on democracy and class struggle and other points were glossed over or downplayed, much like Taylor said, Those who disagree with the approach claim he is "rehabilitating his image" I have not read the whole book so I don't feel I am qualified to comment). Basically Putin doesn't argue because he knows hes right, he has no idea, he argues because he has to be right no matter the topic. This time i just happened to know for a fact that he is wrong, as would every historian apart from probable the New Left.

To put the topic to rest, we started talking about the left leaning nature of history departments today, got into a pissing match about Sean Wilentz and later about a few chapters his synthetic history. If it continues we'll be talking about what he means by race on page 306. Ill end with a short(?) historiography to explain what Wilentz tried to do with this book and then I'll end it.

History directly following World War II is known as the consensus period, as mentioned before. It was a reaction to World War II that claimed that America was exceptional among nations in that, aside from a 5 year period in the nineteenth century, it settled its conflicts through consensus rather than war, revolution, civil war etc. America, according to consensus historians, continually rejected the ideologies that in their opinion had plagued Europe in the 19th century and in World War II.

This school was prominant until the 60s and 70s until they were replaced by the intellectual and social historians. The intellectual historians exposed ideology in American life in the 19th century and indeed saw many competing ideologies. Social historians chipped away at both consensus and intellectual history, showing that the experiences of people on the ground, commoners, African Americans, women, the working class, etc. experienced continued conflict and had little use for elite intellectual ideas. The problem was that social history in studying realities on the ground created hundreds of histories on a smaller scale that were not easily reconciled with one another. Historians, while making important points in their studies of a Connecticut towns population dynamics, or the slave marketplace in south carolina, were not necessarily providing a comprehensive American story

Sean Wilentz with this book, which i have read portions of, is answering a call made by historians in the 1980s. Historians, I believe at an AHA conference called for the writing of synthetic histories which would tie together strands of history. These synthetic histories were first tackled by the most eminent in the field. Gordon Wood wrote a more traditional, conservative intellectual synthesis that often ignored folks in lower classes, Africans, Indians, women etc. instead focusing writ large on political thought. Meanwhile social historians, often siding with the New Left, created syntheses that closely followed the Social histories of the 70's, 80's and 90's often creating a chaotic mess of smaller groups and regions that came together in an argument only to state, for example, in Gary Nash's case, that the Revolution was chaotic and messy.

Wilentz, who wrote a social/cultural history of the working class in New York as his first book in the eighties, here tried to chart a middle course, to deal with the reality on the ground while also viewing the contributions of more traditional actors such as Andrew Jackson around a central theme; the expansion of Democracy (central themes were often lacking in social syntheses). In the parts that I read he explains the limitations of Democratic growth, but no, he does not go out of his way to completely chastise Jackson on issues such as Slavery and Native Americans. It is not the purpose of his book. It is by theme a story about the expansion of Democracy and Native Americans only show up in their relation to that expansion (ie. their exclusion from democratic practices. Now Wilentz's book caused such a stir with Taylor (a historian of the west who wrote the Divided Ground, an influential history of Native Americans and has recently wrote a book about the war of 1812 on the frontier which i recommended in another thread) because Wilentz, in his focus on including social history, covered such required topics as Native Americans and African Americans with not nearly the focus and finesse he used to discuss his bread and butter issues, class and politics. This comes from Wilentz's background as a student of the working class (And Putin I highly recommend you read Chants Democratic no matter what kind of fascist nazi Wilentz is, its right up your ally.) Wilentz's main focus was never "whitewashing" or "rehabilitating" Jackson, it was a by product of writing a synthetic history of the United States from the perspective of Democratic growth, which focuses mainly on whites (because whites were the ones that experienced the growth". No historian claims that Wilentz is purposefully white washing Jackson's image, they claim his work, assumptions, etc. in effect did so.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"He focuses on Jacksonian Democracy as Taylor said and as I said and issues of class rather than issues of Race and Gender."

He addresses of race, at least, head on. It's not a matter of focus. It's a matter of him minimizing the horrors of Indian removal and apologizing for the Democrats being a Slaver party, and saying all that is nullified by the fact that he attacked the 'privileged' class.

"But the narrative periodically breaks for segments of argument against the Neo-Progressive case for the Federalists and Whigs. When they charged the Jeffersonians and Jacksonians with hypocrisy for holding slaves while preaching liberty, Wilentz detects a political tactic devoid of moral foundation. For example, by dwelling on Jefferson's slave mistress, Federalists sought to embarrass the president, not to free Virginia's slaves. Wilentz also refutes charges that Jacksonian democracy was “a genuine slaveholders' party.” He insists that the Democrats resisted abolition only “to protect constitutional order, national harmony, and party unity.” If so, they botched all three.

At times, Wilentz seems to debate himself. For example, he struggles to defend Jackson's brutal policy of Indian removal as “sincere” and well-meaning. Yes, Jackson did believe that he was helping Indians by removing them from their covetous white neighbors, but the road to perdition is paved with good intentions. Jackson's sincere coercion helped to kill 8,000 Cherokees on their Trail of Tears west beyond the Mississippi. Ultimately, Wilentz concedes, “Nothing exculpates Jackson and his pro-removal supporters from the basic truths in the antiremoval arguments.” Wilentz just wishes that historians would devote less attention to Indian removal and more to Jackson's crusade against the Bank of the United States. "

It's not me who didn't read the review. He focuses on Jacksonian Democracy as Taylor said and as I said and issues of class rather than issues of Race and Gender.

And why do you harp on who a person is rather than address the actual argument? You're the one who said Wilentz was a leftist. But then a leftist journal writes a scathing review and you simply dismiss it.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"In the parts that I read he explains the limitations of Democratic growth, but no, he does not go out of his way to completely chastise Jackson on issues such as Slavery and Native Americans."

He goes out of his way to excuse Indian Removal, claiming that he did it for their own 'protection'. He then tries to deflect attention from the Democrats support for slavery by pointing to one or two Democrats who were good on the question and claiming the Whigs were just as bad.

But all of that is not apologism/whitewashing to you. If you say so.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"(And Putin I highly recommend you read Chants Democratic no matter what kind of fascist nazi Wilentz is, its right up your ally.) "

I'm not interested in traitors who happened to be progressive 30 years ago. Hitchens wrote good stuff 30 years ago too. He claims I'm his political enemy. Rightly so. I have no use for backstabbing opportunists like him. I don't care if he claims to have written a great work on labor history. There are plenty of good labor historians who don't resort to groveling before David Horowitz and racebaiting Obama supporters.
Whatever, Eric Foner, the foremost history of slavery seemed to like it, but you know better. And you havn;t even read it.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Anyway, people should read the reviews and books for themselves (I checked out Wilentz's work on Jackson, I'll have a report for Mr. Clausowitz). Clausowitz didn't even read the book but continues to dress me down for 'not knowing what I'm talking about' and speaks with such authority as if he has actually read Wilentz's work. It's so very odd.
Again I have read large sections of the work as I have said many times but have not to read the whole thing. Stop putting words in my mouth And I know Wilentz's work well.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Foner likes it? Foner is a longtime friend of his. What an objective opinion on the matter. I'm sure your BFF likes your work too, no matter how crappy it is.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
"Stop putting words in my mouth And I know Wilentz's work well. "

Yes, portions. You know his work well from reading portions of his work. Got it.
Frank (100 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
this discussions reminds me of this:

CHUCKIE
All right, are we gonna have a problem?

CLARK
There's no problem. I was just hoping
you could give me some insight into
the evolution of the market economy in
the early colonies. My contention is
that prior to the Revolutionary War
the economic modalities especially of
the southern colonies could most aptly
be characterized as agrarian pre-
capitalist and...

Will, who at this point has migrated to Chuckie's side and is
completely fed-up, includes himself in the conversation.

WILL
Of course that's your contention.
You're a first year grad student.
You just finished some Marxian
historian, Pete Garrison prob'ly, and
so naturally that's what you believe
until next month when you get to James
Lemon and get convinced that Virginia
and Pennsylvania were strongly
entrepreneurial and capitalist back in
1740. That'll last until sometime in
your second year, then you'll be in
here regurgitating Gordon Wood about
the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the
capital-forming effects of military
mobilization.

CLARK
(taken aback)
Well, as a matter of fact, I won't,
because Wood drastically underestimates
the impact of--

WILL
--"Wood drastically underestimates the
impact of social distinctions predicated
upon wealth, especially inheriated
wealth..." You got that from "Work in
Essex County," Page 421, right? Do
you have any thoughts of your own on
the subject or were you just gonna
plagerize the whole book for me?

Clark is stunned.

WILL(cont'd)
Look, don't try to pass yourself off
as some kind of an intellect at the
expense of my friend just to impress
these girls.

Clark is lost now, searching for a graceful exit, any exit.

WILL (cont'd)
The sad thing is, in about 50 years
you might start doin' some thinkin' on
your own and by then you'll realize
there are only two certainties in life.

CLARK
Yeah? What're those?

WILL
One, don't do that. Two-- you dropped
a hundred and fifty grand on an
education you coulda' picked up for a
dollar fifty in late charges at the
Public Library.

Will catches Skylar's eye.

CLARK
But I will have a degree, and you'll
be serving my kids fries at a drive
through on our way to a skiing trip.

WILL
(smiles)
Maybe. But at least I won't be a prick.
(beat)
And if you got a problem with that, I
guess we can step outside and deal
with it that way.

While Will is substantially smaller than Clark, he [Clark] decides not
to take Will up on his [Will's] offer.
so putin, is Matt Daemon and Im the guy in the bar, you just made his day.

I preferred the always sunny version myself
Frank (100 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
haha yes, charlie is great in that episode
Charlie-
I'm gonna pull a Good Will Hunting.
[Turns to Frat Boy]
What's your major dude?

Frat Boy-Economics

Charlie- Oh I bet you reading a lot of Gordon Wood ha. You read your Gordon Wood and you regurgitate it from the textbook and you think your wicked awesome doing that, and how bout dem apples and all that Gordon Wood business.
pastoralan (100 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
@Putin--you're amazing. I've never seen anyone who could drag people into arguments about the Anglican Rites Controversy and the historiography of Andrew Jackson. Awesome.
Holy crap!

This thread lit up like a Christmas Tree.

If this ever gets back to US Military policy, the education system, or church and state, someone let me know

=P


267 replies
tquiring (325 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Question about CD and automatic disbanding of units.
I think the wrong units were disbanded in this game, can anyone explain why.
http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=52742&turn=3&mapType=large
3 replies
Open
terry32smith (0 DX)
16 Mar 11 UTC
We need 1 more for a Live game! starts in 4 minutes!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53648
6 replies
Open
rayNimagi (375 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
How to Stop Players in FtF from Refusing to Talk
Details and specific situations inside
20 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
16 Mar 11 UTC
eog
3 replies
Open
Chester (0 DX)
12 Mar 11 UTC
2 cheaters in this server!
Hello, i've reported but didn't happened nothing. I don't know if the message was been sended but here it goes... http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53036

Italy and Austria are roommates and always play a lot of games together
56 replies
Open
fabiobaq (444 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Ancient Mediterranean
Hi, just to invite people into an Ancient Mediterranean new game. 20 hours/phase, PPSC.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53600
0 replies
Open
Page 722 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top