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peterwiggin (15158 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
draw and cancel
If everybody votes both draw and cancel, is the game canceled or drawn?
3 replies
Open
Baskineli (100 D(B))
04 Sep 10 UTC
On metagaming and Diplomacy - a few quotes
It seems that quite a few people here have a negative opinion on so-called "metagaming". Metagaming is a term for using information that is not usually available inside the game.
I think that metagaming IS the real Diplomacy. I've collected a few quotes by famous Diplomacy players that might be interesting for you:

Baskineli (100 D(B))
04 Sep 10 UTC
Lewis Pulsipher:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The heart of Diplomacy is negotiation between seven players... Telling someone how to negotiate well is a difficult task. A person’s attitude toward life and toward the game have a strong, immeasurable, and probably unalterable effect on how, and how well, he or she negotiates in any wargame."

"When you begin a game, you must first learn something about each of your opponents. Sometimes you will know quite a bit to begin with, but you can also ask people who know the opponent better than you do. You want to know if your opponent is generally reliable or not, what his objective is, whether he is a classical or romantic player, and whether or not he is good at negotiation, strategy, and tactics. (This is a controversial point, insofar as some players -- usually the notoriously erratic and unreliable -- say that a player’s previous record should have no effect on the game. The more you know about another player, however, the better you’ll be able to predict his actions. It would require a peculiar view of life for a player to knowingly ally with someone who has never abided by an agreement in 20 games! Similarly, you have little to gain by offering a draw to a player who would “rather die than draw." However much some players like to pretend that they really are government leaders and that World War I is happening just this once, most Diplomacy players recognize that it is an abstract game of skill and act accordingly.)"

"Novice players, urged on by the rulebook introduction, usually believe that the winner will be the player who lies, cheats, and backstabs most effectively. Perhaps if you never play more than once with the same people and never acquire a reputation, this would be true. In the long run, players learn to treat liars and backstabbers as enemies. Why invite disaster in an already difficult game?"

"For one person to do well in a game with six competitors, some cooperation is necessary. Cooperation is easier and more effective between those who can rely upon one another. An expert player rarely lies, and then only because the lie is likely to radically improve his position. He prefers to say nothing, to change the subject, to speak of inconsequential things, rather than lie. When he agrees to an alliance of some kind he usually abides by the agreement... He wants to be known as a reliable player because this will make other players more willing to cooperate with him."

"Some players say that only mutual self-interest should determine whether an agreement is kept or a lie told. When the agreement is no longer in one player’s interest he should break it. In the short term this might also be true (though a lie or backstab early in a game will certainly be remembered to the end of that game, often to the detriment of the perpetrator). The expert player looks at the long term, because few people play just one game of Diplomacy. It is in his interest to maintain agreements and avoid lying in order to establish a reputation for reliability. No altruism is involved. (Incidentally, a reliable player is less often on the receiving end of an emotional barrage from an angry player -- no small gain.)"

"Whether a player’s style is “classical” or “romantic” is tricky to define. Briefly, the classical player carefully maximizes his minimum gain. He pays attention to detail and prefers to patiently let the other players lose by making mistakes, rather than trying to force them to make mistakes. He tends to like stable alliances and steady conflict in the game. He tends to be reliable and good at tactics. The romantic is more flamboyant, taking calculated risks to force his enemies into mistakes, trying to defeat them psychologically before they are defeated physically on the board. (Many players give up playable positions because they’re convinced that they’ve lost.) He tries to maximize his maximum gain, at the cost of increasing potential loss. He can be unpredictable, relying on surprise and the Great Stab for victory. Tending to be an unreliable ally and a sometimes sloppy tactician, he likes fluid, rapidly changing alliances and conflicts."

"It is only a game, and betrayal is a part of it. If you are stabbed or someone lies to you, anger will do you no good. What you can do is make sure your antagonist regrets his action, with the idea that next time, he’ll remember and won’t do it again."


Len Lakofka:
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Diplomatically, then, you attempt to create an atmosphere in which you can accomplish three goals: (1) survive, (2) draw, and (3) win. Note that winning Is not the first goal. If you play to win (without securing your position first) and then something does go wrong with your first alliance, you may have doomed yourself."

"There is nothing immoral or even dishonest about lying in a game designed for lying: Some of your best plays result from stringing a player out and then leaving him / her there to hang all by himself. That is how the game is played. A "good ally" is too worried about being lily white (and I don't mean that ethically) and is missing out on hours of good play. When I get stabbed, I scream and yell for a while, especially when It is a "bad" stab. But if it is a good one, I can enjoy and applaud the experience that got me out on the limb to be stabbed. That is what the game Diplomacy Is all about. You are playing to win, not to be a good guy. Good Guys only win in cross-game alliances and I find that to be reprehensible."



Andrew Feather (from "Psychoanalyse Your Opponents"):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Have you ever noticed after playing in a few games of Diplomacy that certain players are remarkably consistent in their behaviour? What this article attempts to show is that it is possible to predict at the start of a game, if you have enough detail on the past games of your opponents, the likely trend the game is going to follow, and to adapt your own strategy accordingly."

"As they say, Diplomacy is a game of psychologies and personalities!"
Baskineli (100 D(B))
04 Sep 10 UTC
Hope you will enjoy reading it :)
frito (408 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
I did enjoy the quotes but I don't think they support metagaming. It says it at the end of the second quote that cross-game alliances are reprehensible.
peterwiggin (15158 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
And this is why I only play anonymous games . . . nobody trusts me anymore when I play ftf!
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Sep 10 UTC
Really, Bask, the second quote is anti-metagaming.
dwburke (301 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
It is one thing to know your opponents tendencies as far as being compulsive liars or straight shooters and play for those tendencies. It is another to go into a game with another person with the agreement beforehand that you will be allied. To put it another way, it is not cheating for a poker player to use another players tells against him. It is cheating for a poker player to tell another player "when I blink twice quickly I have an ace and you should fold". The first examples are just good observations of your opponents. The second examples are metagaming (cheating).
FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
Bask, I appreciate your persistence, but really all these quotes say are "don't be a compulsive liar and stab people all the time", which very few of us here are (except maybe peterwiggin).

If you don't believe me I can provide you references to people I've worked with throughout entire games and who trusted me completely.

I can also provide references to people I stabbed multiple times in the same game.

When we first had this discussion, you insisted that I deserved to be "punished" for stabbing someone. All I'm arguing is that you can't be a good diplomacy player by either stabbing people all the time, or by never stabbing. You have to have balance, and you have to be flexible.
peterwiggin (15158 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
I'm not a compulsive liar and I don't stab people all the time . . . I just lie and stab as part of a strategy for winning the game. Another reason I prefer anonymous play is that I believe each game should be separate: I don't want to look at the other players and judge whether they're trustworthy or tactically sound based on past games -- they may have changed their style of play in the meantime, or improved, or may just play differently under different circumstances. I think it's better to give everybody a chance to make their case through press and orders; in fact, I think that's the best part of playing online.

Most of the people I play with ftf just expect everybody else to never lie and to be nice all the time. I don't think it helps that, having played so much online, I usually do fairly well.
Kingdroid (219 D)
04 Sep 10 UTC
I think these just outline the positives of anonymous gaming. In anonymous gaming we eliminate natural tendencies, such as allying somebody because they are a good friend of yours in real life, you`can go into a game like you have never met anybody before, and learn their personalities through their play, but in your next game, everybody gets a clean slate. This allows everyone to backstab without fear of it affecting all of their future games.
I think that there's a subtle difference between "learning something about each of your oppenents" and true metagaming. Metagaming is using something outside the game as leverage on an opponent. What this advocates is merely using the opponents weaknesses (which, though they exist outside of the game as well, are an integral part of playing Diplomacy) against them.
Baskineli (100 D(B))
04 Sep 10 UTC
@Draugnar and FOB

I brought these quotes to emphasize that knowing who you are playing with regarding playing-style is very important and beneficial and should not be frowned upon or called "metagaming", because metagaming is something very negative, like dwburke mentioned.

I've brought the second quote as an opposing view - I was trying to provide interesting quotes regarding the issue, not to prove my point. I am perfectly aware of the two views on the issue. I just thought it would be an interesting read.
Lostlibrarian (100 D)
05 Sep 10 UTC
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but speaking of meta gaming- Peter Wiggin? Really? 'Oh yeah sure, let's be allies, I really trust you for some reason'
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Sep 10 UTC
@Bask - The strict definition of metagaming is letting stuff outside the game incluence our decision inside it: something we all do when we know who our opponents are. Knowing your opponent's personality is metagaming, but it is perfectly acceptable and expected. There is both acceptable and unacceptable metagaming. Not all metagaming is bad.
Baskineli (100 D(B))
05 Sep 10 UTC
@Draugnar

I tend to disagree with you. For games that are played repeatedly, such as Diplomacy, chess or prisoner's dilemma, the information you take from one game to another is part of the game.

We are not talking about cheating, of course. When one enters a game, without knowing what country he will get, but knowing who he will ally - that's a very bad form of metagaming (and maybe cheating).
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Sep 10 UTC
No maybe about it. Pre-game alliances are cheating and will get you banned if the mods can prove it or a preponderence of evidence shows you always ally with the same player every game and never stab them or fight with them.
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Sep 10 UTC
Metagaming is letting any knowledge from outside the game influence the game. It is neither good nor bad. It just is. It's the fracking definition, Bask. And it happens all the time and is perfectly acceptable in many of it's forms.
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Sep 10 UTC
Here are two common definitions for metagaming found on the web.

1. The act of using outside or previously gained knowledge within a gaming universe for personal gain or advantage.

2. Predicting an opponent's decision in competitive gaming as a result of analysis of the opponent's past decisions.

Neither of these are inherently bad. The second happens all the time in non-anonymous Dip. And the first is just a good general definition that covers both acceptable forms as well as cheating under one definition.
Baskineli (100 D(B))
05 Sep 10 UTC
I guess in my mind the word 'metagaming' is something negative.

The first definition is more applied to D&D, I think ("This dragon for sure has atleast an AC of 60!"), the second definition is much more suitable for Diplomacy.
Draugnar (0 DX)
05 Sep 10 UTC
The first also applies well to MMORPG and MMOFPS games like WoW, STO, Halo, Unreal Tournament, etc.
Baskineli (100 D(B))
05 Sep 10 UTC
I've never played MMORPGs, but I guess you are right.
peterwiggin (15158 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
@LostLibrarian

Anonymous games are amazing!
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Bask-Thanks so much for putting up this post. It seems that this dip web community is starting to prefer anonymous games and some people feel that non-anon games even encourage metagaming of the bad/cheating kind. It is becoming politically incorrect on this site to disagreee with that point of view.

Well I disagree. Instead I find that knowing your opponnents' personality is very much an important part of the game, just as the original creators anticipated. To repeat one of your best quotes, "When you begin a game, you must first learn something about each of your opponents. Sometimes you will know quite a bit to begin with, but you can also ask people who know the opponent better than you do. You want to know if your opponent is generally reliable or not, what his objective is, whether he is a classical or romantic player, and whether or not he is good at negotiation, strategy, and tactics."

FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
"Classical v. Romantic Player" = great euphamism for Real Diplomacy Players v. Raging Fags.
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
@FOB - *plonk*

You, sir, are a homophobic asshat.
FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
lulz at Draugnar, what a gay
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Married 21 years. But my best friend who passed a few years back was gay and I don't appreciate asshat sister fuckers like you making homophobic slurs.
FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Lulz at Draugnar thinking that 100% of what people say on the netz is serious. Or for thinking that "fag" is anything but 21st Century vernacular for stupid or sissy.
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Guys, stop changing the subject. Start a gay thread if you must. @Draug-many gay people are married
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
"lulz at Draugnar, what a gay "

Where is the word 'fag' in that, asshat?
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
@Terry - I like pussy way too much to be gay. The point is, this asshat is trying to write off his homophobic slurs as something less. He should just go back to pounding salt up his ass and eating out his baby sister and stay off the net.
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Oh and since when are sissies or stupid people "raging". That has always been a homophobic slur, shiteater.
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
And back on topic. I'll metagame the fuck out of FOB if I ever see him in a game. I'll sacrifice everything to make certain the shit eating, sister fucking asshat goes down.
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Lets please get back to so-called "metagaming", the main point of this thread
pastoralan (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Congratulations FOB! You got Draugnar to express an opinion with which I agree.
centurion1 (1478 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
pathetic displays of outrage jesus everyone calm down. what you said is much more vulgar and distasteful to me draugnar
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
It was intended to be... I'm glad it made it's point wiht you, but wish it would have with the asshat formerly known as FriedOkraBlues.
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Lets please get back to so-called "metagaming", the main point of this thread
FatherSnitch (476 D(B))
07 Sep 10 UTC
@Draugnar: "sister fuckers" is an offensively incestophobic epithet. ;-)
Serioussham (446 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
I could be wrong, no doubt you will tell me if you feel I am, but normally being insulting does little to change prejudices/ get apologies.
You always seem so grumpy Draugnar, so stealing a quote from lock stock I say " Chillll Winston!"
FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Rahr, Rahr, listen to me roar! Draug, shouldn't you go back to searching for new Magic: The Gathering deck ideas in your cubicle at your $35,000.00/year job?
FriedOkraBlues (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Besides, Draug, you could be allied with me right now in one of the possible 3 anonymous games we're playing in together.

Think about that when you're in bed with your wife of 21 years tonight.
Kartheiser (128 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
What a bunch of children. No wonder there's so many quitters, cheaters and generally offensive people in every game.
Draugnar (0 DX)
07 Sep 10 UTC
I'm only in one anonymous game. Maybe I'll suicide against my ally.

As far as pay goes, that is listed in another thread (hint the thread is about donations and my W2 based hourly rate is in there). So don't make your asshattery even bigger, FOB.
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Good. Now we can get back to so-called "metagaming", the main point of this thread
ODaly (236 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
/popcorn


45 replies
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Join WTA game - we need 2 more- 36 hr phase
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=36828

PM Ebay for the password
5 replies
Open
V+ (5369 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Can't see the message board in the game
Any ideas why I can't see the message board in one game (http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37178) but I can see it in others?
11 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
If you're around for a live game in the next hour reply to this thread
Just to get a head count of people who are online.
3 replies
Open
join
Join the game below:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37563
2 replies
Open
acmac10 (120 D(B))
07 Sep 10 UTC
WalnutCreek Game...
It's been in the "Open" tab because it is paused, and I finally opened up the game and saw they haven't been online for 500-700 days!!!! Someone should delete that game/tell them by email to draw/cancel. I'm sick of looking at that game.
2 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Request for a Tournament Director - Grand Festive Diplomacy Tournament
This was a really great tournament which last began 2 years ago now. Since then thewonderllama has been unable to run this tournament. Much as I like to be reigning champion in a diplomacy tournament, I want to see this tournament revived. If there is anyone interested in reviving and running this tournament, I would love to hear from them, and will help them to realise it.
16 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
07 Sep 10 UTC
Is this time for that? Really?
It's almost over and I hope Austria learnt a very important lesson. Don't stab the gut who is holding down the stalemate line. He may just give it up.
8 replies
Open
hopsyturvy (521 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
New server error page
I like this. It explains things really clearly and gives us some chance of finding out whether the outages are temporary or not.
12 replies
Open
airborne (154 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
Glitch B1 Game 4
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=36712
Parameter 'viaConvoy' set to invalid value 'No'.
3 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
CDing should reduce your ability to regenerate
Maybe this is just annoyance at having a game ruined, but I think CDing regularly should reduce how many points you get back when you go under 100.
0 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
07 Sep 10 UTC
CD and you Die! (Screw the Boise St. Game Cannot Possibly Fail)
Here's the new game.
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37526
1 reply
Open
Baskineli (100 D(B))
06 Sep 10 UTC
Retreat after dislodgement
Suppose an army tries to move from A to B, however, it is being bounced and doesn't make it to B. In addition, another army (with support) enters A, so the army that was in A is forced to retreat.
Can it retreat to B?
4 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
God Created The Heaven And The Earth...And Deleted Humanity As A Facebook Friend
Just a fun idea I had at 4:30 in the morning--what if God had a Facebook account? (I already feel sillier just typing that lol...) :p
Is God the type who has like 1,000 friends and adds every person he meets, or the kind who has maybe 50 at the most and rarely talks too much...has he deleted us? Who's he friends with? What apps does he use? Or is God that guy who goes "Facebook is DUMB!"...and is a closeted Facebook fiend? ;) (Just have fun with it, no fighting....)
23 replies
Open
Ebay (966 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Semi Anon Game. 2 more needed!!
Starts in 1 day. 60 D bet. Great players. It should be fun if only we can get 2 more. Post interest for the password and you can be 1 of the last 2 players needed for this high diplomacy game. Join!!!
19 replies
Open
jman777 (407 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Looking For Local Volunteer Organizations
Hey all,
I was wondering if any of you knew of volunteer organizations that help and work to build up local communities. I am interested in getting involved in one but am having a bit of a hard time finding them.
Any recommendations are much appreciated.
5 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Live game in one hour, 10 minute rounds (Screw the Boise St. Game, this is better)
Should be fun, and give enough time to chat. Make sure you know how to press the Ready button; I want people to have enough time to really talk, but not get too bored.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37518
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Mel Brooks Live Game!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37512

5 minutes, Anon, and all the best folks will be there--Dark Helmet, Lorenzo St. DuBois aka "LSD Hitler", Ula, Max and Leo, Comicus...starts in two hours! Don't be stupid, be a smarty, Come and Join the Mel Brooks Party! ;)
18 replies
Open
Winston (100 D)
05 Sep 10 UTC
101 point game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=37395
I would like to get some some higher caliber players interested in this game, hence the 101 point bet...
7 replies
Open
Join
Join the game 'Burn!' Right Now, starts in 2 min.
0 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
gunboat live
1 reply
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
04 Sep 10 UTC
The Texting habits of you punks.....
Given the inane nature of some of these forum topics and the A.D.D.-like frequency of same threads, I am curious.....
39 replies
Open
Steve_God (0 DX)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Notification Problem with a Game
On my home page, a message came up for a game, "This user was banned, see game for details." However, it's a "No in-game messaging, Anonymous players" game, so can't see the chatbox.
Not a problem as it would just mean we wouldn't details of who was banned - but the notification at the top of each page for that game won't disappear as the 'Global Notification' is still being marked as unread.
The url for admin's to look at: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35913
0 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
06 Sep 10 UTC
Donations
I didn't realise until today, but there is a donation link on the faq page... Trying to raise a little bit of capital (for whatever kestas chooses to spend it on)

I feel the enjoyment i have gotten from several years of playing diplomacy here is worth the investment.
107 replies
Open
Baskineli (100 D(B))
06 Sep 10 UTC
F16 Versus M16
The eternal debate.
Which one would you choose?
I would go with F16, although I don't have enough parking space on my street, so maybe after all I will go with M16. What would YOU choose?
10 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
02 Sep 10 UTC
Strat Ratings
Everyone Currently has zero points.

138 replies
Open
lousama (100 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Fast open game available
10 minute phase.... need people. "Zenith" is the name. Hope to see you!
2 replies
Open
BaYofPiGs117 (100 D)
06 Sep 10 UTC
Would anyone like to join me?
just in a 5 min phase game?
4 replies
Open
andrewlee (20 DX)
06 Sep 10 UTC
let have a fast game join a 5 mins phase game man
let have a fast game come on
1 reply
Open
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