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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 130 of 1419
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Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
19 Aug 08 UTC
Need a sitter...urgent!
I need a sitter urgent...starting from the 25th to the 30th.
Please reply below, with complete email info.
Best to be a reputed player, and willing to spend lots of time in this.
I've unfortunately got many games running at the moment.
14 replies
Open
DNA117 (1535 D)
22 Aug 08 UTC
New way of communicating
Who would be interested in using Skype in games for communicating with each other?
7 replies
Open
monomorphism (100 D)
22 Aug 08 UTC
How you do propose a draw?
I believe the game "Free Conquest" is drawn, as Turkey controls 17, but the other players have set up a stalemate line.

How can we propose/vote on this?
0 replies
Open
Alan3 (1097 D)
21 Aug 08 UTC
Please draw the game Bah
Link: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4755&msgCountry=Global

Russia is requesting the draw.
Turkey & Germany will agree below
3 replies
Open
arthurmklo (879 D)
22 Aug 08 UTC
not finalizing a crime?
in the game "()" (http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4635)
France is saying that me (Turkey) is not finalizing because im losing and trying to drag the game on, and that I need to show some sportsmanship. Now since that I didnt finalize, he is not taking the win until im dead

(details within)
3 replies
Open
richo (100 D)
21 Aug 08 UTC
Points per supply centre
Is there any other split of points available? Like winner takes all or second gets their bet back?
6 replies
Open
Saad (100 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Two accounts
Well I told my brother about phpDiplomacy, and he's joined it. But would this be counted as multi-accounting since we have the same IP, I'm also in the same game as him so would this account to multi-accounts?
9 replies
Open
Blackheath Wanderer (0 DX)
21 Aug 08 UTC
Moscow Mule 3 Super Fast Game
Takes less time to play than it took to secure South Ossetia from the Georgians :)

Sign up if you dare!
1 reply
Open
amathur2k (100 D)
21 Aug 08 UTC
question regarding convoy rules
Hi if a fleet convoying an army with support from x units (other than the one being convoyed) is attacked by x enemy units, the convoy should still go through right ?
2 replies
Open
vasvla (1220 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Draw request
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5035

I'm England. Russia, France and Italy agreed on global, so they should write here about that, too.
7 replies
Open
Oxim (280 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Support move question
Given the following situation:
Eng S Bre
Bre S Pic - Par
Pic - Par
(Enemy) Gas - Bre

Does this cut the support from Brest?
Can you cut any support moves regardless of the number of support holds this unit gets?

I just had this situation in the game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4720
and I actually expected to get Paris.
9 replies
Open
Russiprocal (100 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
A sorta high-point game.
The additive russiprocal. Cause I'm so clever. I believe it's a 102-pt game. Come join!
1 reply
Open
Talus Proteus (1961 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Frustrated Pre-game phase
What happens if the time limit for your Pre-Game phase expires and not enough people have joined? Does the game still start with less people and give others the option of bidding to enter? Or does it wait for more players?
10 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
17 Aug 08 UTC
Canute et al...
Anyone spotted his new accounts yet?

My experience as a mod elsewhere says he'll be back asap and messing up games.
18 replies
Open
El_Perro_Artero (707 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Experienced Game
This is a game for players who have played 15 or more games on this site.
13 replies
Open
valoishapsburg (314 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Strange Posts
in the following game: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4677

I took over Germany and when looking through the conversation with england there was never any asking for an alliance, no actual conversation. They merely state their orders. Is this usual?
42 replies
Open
hermanobrown (925 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Time between the turns
I have one doubt. I am in several games where the phase is 24h, but sometimes the turn ends before the time. Ok, I´ve posted my orders, but how does it work?
5 replies
Open
fidel (886 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Retreats and build phases count for going CD?
How long does it take to go CD?

I am playing a game (http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5064) where France didn't play for 3 days now (he didn't answer any messages either) , but he has not go CD yet, so there is no opportunity for other people to take it (he still has 5 sc's, and could have 6 or 7 had he played).
The phases of these 3 days were Autumn, Retreats and Builds 1904 phases. He has been attacked and has lost a sc, but as he has not retreated, he has nothing to build and so he has the sign of "completed orders" from scratch on that phase.

As in that game England was CD almost from scratch, Germany has all the opportunities to grow, and so, I was forced to move into him too early, which is not so good strategically.

I wonder if retreats and builds count for going CD, and if they do, what happens if the country have no orders to enter. I suggest that even when there are no orders to enter, the player should say "Ok" or something, so he can be counted as a step to go CD if he doesn't.

What do you say?
0 replies
Open
Iidhaegn (111 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
Obligations of the Player
Recently I've noticed this trend in the forums where I suppose there was some discussion earlier where a majority (or a distinct camp at least) was formed under the agreement that "if a player has an opportunity to undoubtedly win a game, s/he must do so." Please discuss.
Iidhaegn (111 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
For those that agree, does this obligation extend to every game everywhere, or just phpDip? I'm very curious to hear people's feelings on this issue.

I suppose it would be in order to state an opposing way of thinking: a player is under no obligation to win a game, provided he has a reason for wanting to extend it.

I believe there's something to be said about "fun," however. If the game is not a competition of some kind, then fun is the key element. As long as everyone is having fun the game may continue. When the game drags on beyond that point, perhaps it's time to end. In a "competition" situation, however, every player may determine on his own how long he would like to extend a game.

I would definitely consider phpDip a competition situation, since we have the points/ranking system. It may not be for any real reason, but there is definite prestige to those players who make it to the top, yes?
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
My belief is that if a player can win he should do it. Every game, everywhere (as long as it is Diplomacy)
Iidhaegn (111 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
I'm curious as to where this line of thinking originates. I would greatly appreciate if you could explain the thought-process behind it. :-)
ldrut (674 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
I've posted my opinion under the related question of whether a player is obligated to force a draw to have the minimum number of participants by eliminating his ally.

I can argue either side, but my answer is that in the absence of an agreement, site rules, or a title that clearly says what people are expected to do, no player has the obligation to play to any particular end. Some may look to maximize wins and some points. Some worry about the single game and some their point score or win totals. Some backstab willy-nilly, some never. Which is right is opinion, not fact.

This is different from metagaming. That involved players having motivations which can not be discovered by other players. In this case, you can check in-game posts, game results, move records, etc. and get some rough idea of how a player plays. You may not want to do the work to get the info, but it is not secret.
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
Simple really:
1. The objective of the game is to win. It is witten in the rule-book if you wish :)
2. Every game is for itself. Nothing that happens outside of it is important (e.g. friends, agreements, reputation, other games)

This is not obligatory though - it's a free world :)
aoe3rules (949 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
it's kind of like the argument that WTA is "closer to the spirit of the game" than PPSC. there's logic behind it (the same kind, actually), but it's hard to explain, and you can either agree or not agree. either way you can't make it a rule.
Chrispminis (916 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Ivo's second post pretty much sums up exactly what I think. I would not force anyone to behave in any particular way, but I certainly encourage a play for the win spirit and a selfish playing style.

Number 2 is more important for phpDip because as a large online community which is essentially a bunch of strangers coming together to play Diplomacy, metagaming should not be allowed to put players at a disadvantage.

However, in a real life game, with 6 other friends, I whole heartedly encourage metagaming. It adds much more depth to the game, and hopefully nobody is at a terrible disadvantage. Perhaps you might show some mercy, if you're friend agrees to buy you lunch.
Archonix (246 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Honestly, I think that the desire to win should be along side the desire to do as best you can. Ending a game that you definitely can win is not doing the best you can, although it is legal and I believe that it should be. The motivation for it though often is and will be bordering on meta-gaming.
kiwisauce (677 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
In my opinion, each player should be able to determine their own interpretation of the spirit of Diplomacy, and I don't think any interpretation is inherently better than another. The fun of Diplomacy is that it simulates real political negotiation, and just like in real life, everyone potentially has different goals. If a given player is of the group that aims to win at all costs, part of the challenge of this is determining what the goals of each player are, and then using that knowledge to their advantage.

So I don't really think a player has "obligations", as the title of this thread suggests. A player who tries to get a five-way draw because they don't want to backstab their loyal ally has just as legitimate a strategy as a player who rampages through friend and foe on a path to victory. I am willing to accept all playstyles, except for cheating. :)
alamothe (3367 D(B))
19 Aug 08 UTC
there's no fun in not winning! if you enjoy delaying the game then you're a wacko and you deserve to lose :-) the other reason for not winning is metagaming
Ballack (2571 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
About the fun issue: The fun of the game vanishes for everybody if some do not want to win. This even happens if your neighbor CDs and you can pick the centers---that is not much fun. Or imagine somebody has almost won and then retreats voluntarily just to extend the game. How much fun would this be for the others (even if some of them wins)?
So, yes, in my opinion everybody is supposed to want to win, otherwise the fun is spoiled.
Iidhaegn (111 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Well, I must say it's been rather interesting reading the responses. I'm delighted that there doesn't seem as strong a presence of the "must win" camp as I had initially imagined there to be.

One wonder I've been having is this one here: imagine England/Russia are in an alliance. And everyone knows Russia is going to win. England has expressed a desire to Russia to dominate the board. That is, England and Russia wipe everyone else out. Russia is poised to win the game, but they still need to knock out another 3 or 4 SC's for it to be pure R/E. (Yes, this is more or less something that happened earlier. With me being the England character. Countries may not be exact as I've forgotten which game that was.) This situation is not unbelievable, is it?

Finally, one thing about fun. In a situation where there is something at stake (e.g. points) fun goes out the window. I mean, it may still be fun for some players, but that it stops being fun for one or two doesn't really matter. You've dedicated yourself to those points and win or lose you have to see them through to the end. At least, that's my view on the issue. :-)
Oxim (280 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Diplomacy has also the unique situation over classic zero-sum games, that it has different shades of draw (2-way, 3-way, 4-way).
I usually play it in a way, that my goal is solo -> two-way draw -> three-way draw -> .... -> seven-way draw -> not included into any draw or somebody else's solo.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in securing a three-way draw, when your chance of soloing is only 5%, against 70% solo of your opponent.
Also, somebody else might have a different order or goals, for instance by seperating being runner up and being eliminated, or by simply counting the number of points you get.
They are absolutely allowed to define their goals different, because as I said, it is not a 0-sum game like chess, where the goals are easy to set for everybody.
Feckless Clod (777 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Objectives Other Than Winning
By Allan B. Calhamer

The long argument among the fans between what has been called the "Win Only" school and the "Strong Second" school, is really an argument over what the player’s objectives should be in cases in which he has little or no hope of winning, or in which he is playing to win but wishes to keep a second objective in reserve. The "Win Only" school believes that the secondary objective should be to draw the game; the "Strong Second" believes in rating performances other than wins and draws.

To begin with, Diplomacy may appear to be a cruel game, because it produces only one winner to six losers. Compare chess or checkers, in which three games might produce 3 winners and 3 losers. This relative scarcity of victories among the contestants may have stimulated the undergrowth of secondary objectives.

Nevertheless, it is not wholly clear why the draw is not an adequate secondary objective, inasmuch as the game is probably a draw with best play from the overwhelming majority of positions actually encountered. One of the difficulties may be that the draw is reputed to be inconclusive, because it is so reckoned in chess or checkers. However, a draw in Diplomacy may be more conclusive than victories among an equivalent number of chess players. If seven players play Diplomacy, and three draw, those three have scored above the four others. If six players play in three chess games, and all the games are wins, those three have scored above only three others, rather than four. Yet in the Diplomacy game, there is still the possibility of one player winning it all.

The draw, of course, is the only objective other than victory that is recognised by the Rulebook.

The assumption behind the 18 centre victory criterion is that, given 18 units to a disunited combination of only 16 units, the leader can in general eventually conquer the whole board. Thus, no country survives except his own. Critics have claimed that there are positions in which certain countries could survive by stalemate, or by regaining a combination of 17 or more units; consequently, the notion that a country gaining 18 units could sweep the board is not invariably correct. It is my opinion that this point is of negligible importance, because almost all of the games will not come out that way, and because the victory criterion must have some hard and fast definition, and because it takes a long time to acquire 18 units as it is. Indeed, I would prefer some standard such as 16 or 12 units, or the biggest power after the elapse of a predetermined amount of time (real or game); except for the fact that such low victory criteria are unusually subject to upset by threats to "throw" the game to one country or another.

Following the assumption that a power holding 18 units can sweep the board, it then appears that no power has survived the game unless he has achieved either a win or a draw. The reward for a draw, then, is the reward for survival in a dangerous world.

The notion that all players sharing in the draw share equally reflects in part the considerable and logical difference between survival and elimination; anyone who has survived into the draw might conceivably win if the game went on, but no one eliminated can do so.

Some people have objected that a player having 10 units is entitled to more credit than one having only one unit when a draw is agreed upon. One answer to this notion is that draws are agreed upon; consequently any player who objects to equal credit for the smaller powers can refuse to agree, for a few moves, while he proceeds to knock out the smaller powers, and more than one larger power can agree to so proceed before voting the draw. Now, if it is still impossible to get rid of those tiny powers, they must have something going for them within the game which is operating to ensure their survival: possibly a position in which it is very difficult to knock them out, or a friendly power holding them up, or a situation in which the would-be attackers cannot agree on which of them should get the territory; whatever the reason is, the tiny power has achieved survival within the game.

Giving equal credit to all those sharing in the draw also encourages the smallest power to fight for the draw, instead of giving up without a fight. If they give up without a fight, the larger powers may not get a draw either, since the leader may benefit from their collapse and win.

One of the bad features about scoring the draw equally for all participants is that some three or four players in a game might lose sight of the primary objective altogether, and play only to knock out the other players, after which they would probably have a draw, since none of them had manoeuvred to weaken the others. In this way, players might achieve above average results, at least until other players got onto them. However, they would not be likely to achieve high results, such as the highest places in a tournament, or for that matter, even a single victory. Thus, if the value of the draw were increased, there might be incentive to play for the draw from the start, which is anti-competitive; whereas if the value of the draw were reduced, there might be less incentive to unite to stop the leader, which would also be an anti-competitive result.

Some players have regarded "second place", "third place", and so forth as suitable objectives other than victory, sometimes regarding them as better than a draw. Some have regarded only "strong Second", second place with, say, 10 units or more, as an appropriate object other than victory. Some have credited "survival" - but by this term they have meant survival until another player achieved victory, not indefinite survival through win or draw.

Although these objectives do not appear in the Rulebook, some ratings systems give credit for them, one GM gives small prizes for the first three places, and so forth. Any player once in the lead might as well offer his assistance toward the attainment of these objectives to the other players, since these objectives, unlike the draw, do not conflict with the leader’s effort to win. Indeed, a player who himself does not credit any of these objectives might as well offer his help toward the attainment of them to all the other players from the outset, provided they help him toward a win.

Some players have argued that giving credit for "strong second" is realistic. This result is hard to determine, for when a player has won, he has presumably gained control of Europe, something which one country has never done. The strong second, then, is the last or largest to fall to the conqueror. Whether this situation is a good one or not is hard to say. The Mongols used to give the worst treatment to those of their enemies that held out the longest.

In terms of achievement, it is easy to believe that a strong second with 10 units is preferable to being knocked out early, or to succumbing with the rest while holding just one unit. However, in the final battle to prevent the leader from winning, one would normally expect the second place player to be the leader of the opposition. Consequently, something must be detracted from his achievement because he must bear some of the responsibility for the failure in the final battle.

A recent postal game arrived at a point at which the supply centres were divided among the remaining players 17-11-6. Here the player in second place could have secured second place by giving one of his centres to the leader, ending the game 18-10-6; but this player plays only for a win or a draw. The third place player was willing to entertain second place as an objective other than victory; however, there was no way he could achieve it, because if he attacked the second place player, the leader would win at once. Consequently, the two weaker players joined to fight for the 3-way draw, playing several exciting moves, and eventually succeeding.

This final attempt to contain the leader is sometimes one of the most dramatic and exciting parts of the game. Co-operation must be created among players who have been fighting one another, and who have set their hearts on other objectives; they must admit that goal they have pursued all game long, which are now within their grasp, have just lost their value, and may even be destructive. Frequently, they are out of position for the new encounter, and are better positioned to fight each other. They must form a line together, exposing their territories to each other. This is not the co-operation of merely being assigned to the same team. This co-operation is hard won over difficulties. This is Verdun.

Sometimes allies in this position take pot-shots at one another, trying to gain as much as they can without collapsing the alliance; sometimes they lack aggressiveness because they suspect each other. Almost always they come around to the grand alliance too late. History has seen aplenty of these things.

The opportunities for this final high battle, this Armageddon, this human drama, are, of course, dribbled away if a "strong second" player is within reach of second. He is the knocked-out bottom of the jug that might have contained the leader.

[Reprinted from the 1974 IDA Diplomacy handbook. Allan is, of course, the inventor of Diplomacy.]
MarekP (12864 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
aoe3rules (949 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
you could have read it on Diplomacy Archive.
dangermouse (5551 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
In a WTA game yes, every player is obligated to play for victory. If they cannot win they are obligated to stop anyone else from winning. The only exception to the 2nd part is when a player uses a threat of throwing the game as a diplomatic tactic.


17 replies
DeliciousWolf (112 D)
15 Aug 08 UTC
No Fleet Builds 2 - Needs More Players!
With just 7 hours to go the newest variant of No Fleet Builds has just two players - please check your messages for your invite and password!
17 replies
Open
cteno4 (100 D)
20 Aug 08 UTC
Convoys involving the Black Sea
I've noticed that the Black Sea has some strange convoy options, particularly when convoying from Bulgaria. It says that I could conceivably convoy an army from Bulgaria to Greece or Smyrna when there is a fleet in the Aegean Sea; when there is also a fleet in the Ionian it presents the options of Albania, Apulia, Naples, and Tunis.

While those other fleets could legally perform the convoy, they should not appear on the list of possible convoy destinations for the Black Sea fleet.

This bizarre property of convoys involving the Black Sea fleet seems to only apply when the convoy is initiated out of Constantinople or Bulgaria; convoys starting from elsewhere along the Black Sea coast are only shown as convoyable to other territories along the Black Sea.

Is there some way this glitch could be fixed? I imagine a similarly confusing situation exists in the Heligoland Bight-North Sea-Skagerrak-Sweden-Baltic Sea-Denmark region as well as perhaps aroung Saint Petersburg with its two coastlines.
2 replies
Open
cteno4 (100 D)
12 Aug 08 UTC
Multi-Accounting accusation
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5053
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5041

I accuse Tohr and GrandeBiller of multi-accounting, and suspect that the other five players in both of these games are also run by the same person. It seems that GrandeBiller has been creating games (and players) to give his account a higher win rate, to win points, and to screw with other games.

The two players are now together in nine games, seven of which are still going and some of which are with legitimate other players.

Can we ban these accounts and restart some of the games they are in? It's a real bother to deal with cheaters in a Diplomacy game, particularly when they are assigned neighboring countries as they are in http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5115 (France/Germany). If you're in another affected game, go ahead and post to reply with YOUR thoughts.

It's further suspicious when in that last-mentioned game the two players are the only two to have finalized orders, and they both did it within minutes of each other. Currently no player on the board has had any communication with them (except for possibly them with each other).
33 replies
Open
daggertail88 (332 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
possible multi-account/metagaming?
this game makes no sense
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5011
i took over a CD england in spring of 1904. i am able to make a move or two without anything happening. after I take some centers from russia, russia, turkey, and italy all ally against me. Turkey is clearly able to take numerous amounts of supply centers from either one, but he is just moving around them to get at me. and i was nowhere near harming turkey or winning the game. Anyone's opinion?
2 replies
Open
Caddy (100 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Is this a bug ??
Why does Germany have 4 Armies on the board ??? They only have 3 supply centers.
3 replies
Open
warsprite (152 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
Why do people muti-account?
What is the point? If you have to win by cheating you must be a very bad player. I've seen players like this when playing face to face games, they are like little kids that cannot stand to lose. Why even play if you cannot stomic to lose.
13 replies
Open
ldrut (674 D)
18 Aug 08 UTC
Question on retreats
Dumb question time

When a unit is forced to retreat is "Disband" always an available option? The rules seem to suggest that it should not be. I need to know for one of my games and I have no idea since, as far as I recall, every retreat I have had on this site has also been a forced disband.
17 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
13 Aug 08 UTC
Update on Leagues
An update on the happenings in the Grand flashy & Chrispee diplomacy leagues is below
74 replies
Open
laurence208y (3405 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Draw request for 12 hr/term game
Me and Turkey at 17 supplies each
turkey will post below
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4808
1 reply
Open
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
DRAW REQUEST for NFL Fans
Hello Kestas,

please, can you draw the game "NFL Fans" - http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4874

After a long and tiresome fight, and an even longer and public discussion :), we've agreed to a spectacular 5-way draw :)
The other players will confirm shotly.

Thank you.
3 replies
Open
Uncle Willy (221 D)
19 Aug 08 UTC
Will someone please take over this CD France??
Myself (England) and Russia have been battling against France and Italy for most of the game. Now, after we have made some advances, France has went CD and Italy is just going to end the game by taking France's SCs. Can someone please join this game to prevent Italy from winning? I will move out of Brest and enter in an alliance with the new France against Italy.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4887
6 replies
Open
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