Really????????????????????
No way. It couldnt be truth that during 1990is
they were doing that also, it couldnt be truth.

FUCK CIA FUCK CNN FUCK RETARDS THAT BELIEVE THEM. Sorry Jamiet, Im kind of drunk.

Yes Jamie, not news.

Evidence? Saudi Arabia officially denies it. The (AIPAC-funded) Washington Institute for Near East Policy investigated and found no evidence. Yours?

I mean specifically regarding funding ISIS.

Everything that has to do with terrorism is originally Saudi. The official state religion of Saudia Arabia is Wahhabi Islam. ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other terrorist groups share the same ideology with small differences.

Was that meant as evidence of funding? The fact that they share very similar ideologies?

Not similar ideologies, these other ideologies were derived from the ~200 year old Saudi Wahhabism.

Also, that is not the evidence you are looking for.

ISIS may not be holding to these teachings, they have gone as far off the rails as Al Queada were off militant Islam...

I think the death penalty is appropriate for murderers. Without more information, I'm not prepared to label Saudi Arabian justice as barbaric simply because there was a high number of executions. I would want more evidence of what crimes they were conducted of and what kinds of judicial procedures were followed.

ISIS beheads people for no reason and with no real judicial process -- key distinction.

"Saudi Arabia routinely executes political prisoners and children"

Which children have been routinely executed? This is shocking indeed. If you could provide a list of names and their ages that would be a big help. Not all of them, of course, just ten or so of the most recent.

Forgive me, but I also seem to have missed the bit where you say what the UK government should be doing.

This is why the 'west' should stop supposing that they are morally superior than others, and admit that their machinations are based purely on geopolitics.

It is interesting how the Saudis have become the whipping boys of the left (good choice of analogy). It is almost as if Saddam H, Bashar a-A, Muammar G, Osma B-L and the mullahs of Iran have no blame at all attached to them for the current mess. Ergo, it must all be the fault of those reactionary Saudis and their western friends.
Actually isn't this projection rather revelatory of Jeremy C's etc. real motivation? And that appears to me to be any enemy of, what they consider to be, the imperialist west is a friend of theirs. And I do mean ANY enemy, no matter how repulsive and fascist their views might be.

As an example of we have this last night from the former mayor of London, talking about the 7/7 bombers on BBC question time

‘They gave their lives, they said what they believed. They took Londoners’ lives in protest at our invasion of Iraq.’

What a scumbag.

It is definitely not to say that Saddam and Assad have no hand in this mess, but to suggest that it is all their fault, as Western leaders suggest, is inane.

@ Amwidkle: "I think the death penalty is appropriate for murderers. Without more information, I'm not prepared to label Saudi Arabian justice as barbaric simply because there was a high number of executions. I would want more evidence of what crimes they were conducted of and what kinds of judicial procedures were followed."

Ok, here is some more information:

More than half of the executions in Saudi Arabia between 2014 and June 2015 were for non-lethal offences - i.e. not murderers. Quite a few of the executions were for drugs-related offences. Several people were executed for "breaking allegiance to the ruler".

There were also executions for the crimes of "witchcraft" and "sorcery". Do you believe that the death penalty is appropriate for witches and sorcerers?

Saudi Arabia is one of only two countries in the world which still carries out executions in public. Barbaric.

@ Amwidkle: "ISIS beheads people... with no real judicial process"

Amnesty International reports that: "Court proceedings in Saudi Arabia fall far short of international standards for fair trial. Trials in death penalty cases are often held in secret. Defendants are rarely allowed formal representation by lawyers, and in many cases are not informed of the progress of legal proceedings against them. They may be convicted solely on the basis of confessions obtained under duress or involving deception."

What kind of judicial process is that?

The information I have just made reference to is contained in the following report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/act50/0001/2015/en/


@ Octavious: "Which children have been routinely executed? This is shocking indeed. If you could provide a list of names and their ages that would be a big help. Not all of them, of course, just ten or so of the most recent."

The information is difficult to obtain because of the secrecy of the Saudi judicial system - there are likely to be children on death row whose "trials" have not been publicly reported. However, some examples from the last couple of years:

- Nasser al-Qahtani and 6 others (7 in total) were executied in March 2013 after being convicted of involvement in a robbery. Nasser was 15 at the time of the offence, and it is reported that all 7 were under 18.
(https://www.rt.com/news/saudi-arabia-execution-juveniles-188)

- Rizana Nafeek was executed by beheading January 2013 - she was aged 17 at the time of the offence.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Rizana_Nafeek)

- Ali al-Nimr, Dawood Hussein al-Marhoon and Abdullah Hasan al-Zaher are currently on death row in Riyadh, having been sentenced to death for participating in an anti-government protest. All three were under 18 at the time of the protest (two 16 and one 17).


@Octavious: "Forgive me, but I also seem to have missed the bit where you say what the UK government should be doing."

The following measures would be a good start:

- Cease all arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Cancel the Saudi British Defence Co-operation Programme, and ban UK defence contractors from selling to Saudi Arabia. Currently, Britain's dealings with Saudi Arabia send the clear message that human rights of the Saudi people are of lesser concern than the commercial interests of BAE.

- Impose a ban on the export of any other goods or services that may support internal repression.

- Impose financial sanctions, including asset freezes, on any individuals and corporate entities associated with the Saudi regime.

- A UK travel ban for individuals associated with the Saudi regime.

- Suspend all other forms of UK government investment in Saudi Arabia.

- Ban Saudi exports to the UK.

You're not saying anything new, Jamiet. I've always believed that the Saudis were bad guys. Their leadership is all a bunch of worthless oil-peddling war-funding criminals. I don't know why the United States continues to do business with them (or Israel, for that matter).

So none of them were children when executed, and all were a long way over the age of criminal responsibility (as defined by most western nations) when the offences took place? I'm sorry, but I could not honestly translate that into a statement that Saudi Arabia routinely executes children. I could say it occasionally executes adults who committed their crimes during later stages of adolescence, which is undeniably a bad thing, but doesn't quite have the same headline grabbing spin.


Regarding your measures that are a good start, what do you hope them to achieve? I can see them doing a small amount of harm to Saudi Arabia, and possibly a bit more harm to us, but I can't see what good it will do.

Ultimately, what is your aim? What do you want to see happen in Saudi Arabia? I would like it to turn into a secular western style democracy, but I can't for the life of me see any better way to make it happen other than friendship and sustained persuasion, which will ultimately take a huge amount of time.

Your suggestions seem to me to amount to an attempt at a Cuban style economic blockade, which failed spectacularly in Cuba for decades despite the fact that she had very few powerful allies and little in the way of natural resources. On a country full of economic resources and countless powerful nations willing to be its best friend, what good could it possibly do?

Messages are important, Octavious. Unless you believe in 100% realpolitik and have no morals or principles whatsoever.

If you have morals and principles, you should not actively support the activities of those who act in complete opposition to them.

If you are willing to declare that you are completely lacking in either morals or principles, and that you also feel that our Government should behave without reference to either morality or principle, then please, go ahead.

Perhaps I am less eager than you, Jamie, to sacrifice the livelihoods of thousands of families on an exercise that will achieve not one iota of good other than to make you feel better. My principles in this matter are focused on making life better for the people of Britain and the people of Saudi Arabia. Yours don't seem to give a damn about anyone other than yourself.

Tell me precisely how supporting the torture and beheading of anyone who protests against the Saudi regime is "making life better for the people of Saudi Arabia".

"Your [principles] don't seem to give a damn about anyone other than yourself."

Please expand on this point. You have previously told me how little the lives of people in foreign countries mean to you, and yet suddenly now you are the friend of the Saudi masses and accuse me of being selfish. Explain.

We are not supporting the torture and beheading of anyone.

I imagine if this were face to face, Ocatvious and Jamie would have had sex by now, with all the tension and chemistry they have built up together.

#WebDip fanfic

"Please expand on this point"

It's simple. You plans clearly hurt thousands of people in Britain who are involved in industries depending on exports to Saudi Arabia. They clearly hurt thousands in Saudi Arabia who are involved in industries exporting here. I would argue they would also hurt the many millions who will benefit from British influence over Saudi Arabia over the future decades.

The only people who benefit whatsoever are people like you who feel slightly better about themselves for taking action, despite not seeming to give a damn about what the action achieves other than "sending a message" that the Saudi leadership will just ignore.

I have also never told you that the lives of people in foreign countries mean so little to me. Another Jamie lie.

wjessop, old chap... over the last few days I can't help but notice you've been fantasizing over watching me having a heavy cuddle session with valis via a webcam, and now having make up sex with Jamie...

...is everything ok? Not been working yourself too hard, maybe?

Octavious POV:

I normally always feel comfortable sitting in the front row at debate meetings but today was different. As I sat there listening to the first speaker complain eloquently about foreign policy issues, something stirred in me that I didn't quite understand and I hadn't felt before. Was it his rough-toned voice with all those northern faux-posh Durham inflections? Or maybe just his ridiculous political views that made him seem endearing to me? I wasn't sure, but as I sat there I felt myself hole up in my chair slightly, as Jamie T slammed his fist down on to the table and shouted "tear the fat ones down to size!". As he leant across the table, I caught his attention and he glanced straight down in to my eyes staring up at him. I shivered.

How could someone so politically misguided stir me in such a way? I knew I had to challenge him right away.

When the Chair motioned for Jamie to give way for another speaker, I rose up immediately and rebuked his drivel in the best way I could. But Jamie only sat there smiling, shaking his head at me, "no no no". Well, it must be said, I had never in my life been told "no" before! Who did this upstart think he was? But the 2 hours allotted for debate had passed over so quickly and we had somehow found our way in to the pub...

Everyone, be very nice to wjessop over the next few weeks. No unkind messages, anything remotely insulting, and for God's sake no sudden noises.

lol

@ Octavious: You previously told me (via PM) in fairly clear terms that the lives of foreign people mean significantly less to you than the lives of British people. You seemed to find it odd that I did not feel the same.

@ Octavous: "Your plans... clearly hurt thousands in Saudi Arabia who are involved in industries exporting here."

"sending a message that the Saudi leadership will just ignore."

So you claim you are certain that if Britain cut all ties with Saudi Arabia, the Saudis would not respond one bit, even though this would harm the Saudi people.

Based on the logic you normally employ, would this not mean that the harm suffered by the Saudi people was the fault of the Saudi regime?

Bear in mind, in the context of the logic I refer to, you have previously argued that the situation in Syria is primarily the responsibility of the Syrian people.

@OP (and som others)
Probably the Saudi govt. is not directly supporting IS, and the fact that IS salafism is shockingly similar to Saudi wahabbism can't be necessaily taken as proof of anything, since that very similarity might well be the cause of conflict between them (as there would be between christianism and a religion saying much the same as christianism except that the Messia was not Jesus but any other random jew).

Of course, that does not avoid saudi citizens to be convinced by the propaganda of IS that's being so succesful with 10% of muslims anywhere in the world.

Regarding IS, I'd honestly put more responsability on Turkey govt (mainly for ommission, I must admit I have no solid proofs in this case either, but the fact that some of the regions more solidly into IS hands are next to Turkey's borders, and the reports I've read about IS combatants coming to kurdish towns from inside Turkey, plus rummors about Turkey making bussiness with IS oil...).

Anyway, that does not mean that Saudi is not such a despicable govt and that there's not a big deal of hypocrisy in western govts. and people like Octavius

@ Jamie

I don't whether you're deliberately lying or whether you are unable to remember things without applying your own spin. I'm not sure which is worse. No, that never happened. I told you that I will always prioritise Britain over other nations, but that does not mean I see the lives of foreigners as trivial. That is, frankly, a bloody idiotic thing to say.


""sending a message that the Saudi leadership will just ignore."

So you claim you are certain that if Britain cut all ties with Saudi Arabia, the Saudis would not respond one bit, even though this would harm the Saudi people."

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand what you are saying here.

@ principians

What is the hypocrisy?

@ Octavious: "Sorry, I genuinely don't understand what you are saying here."

You said that my policy would harm Saudis. You also said that the Saudi regime would ignore it.

Is that not what you said?

I am a proponent of geopolitics first. we should not try to impose our views of morality on other sovereign nations. The west holds things such as human rights as 'universal' but there is nothing universal about it other than that the only superpower says it to be so.

Yes, it is. As I said,
"They clearly hurt thousands in Saudi Arabia who are involved in industries exporting here".

Do you dispute that? It seems a statement of the blindingly obvious.

Also, the Saudi leadership will not be impacted in any significant way whatsoever. Do you dispute that? Are you under the impression that our buying of Saudi products is vital to their economy? Do you think they will collapse if they are forced to buy a Chinese fighter jet instead of British ones? Of course not.

The normal people who work in those areas will suffer immediately, the Saudi people will suffer as a whole in the long term as our influence to modernise the country diminishes from not a lot to zero. The Saudi leadership won't notice a damned thing

Octavious, I think you underestimate Britain's influence, both current and potential, with the Saudis. The UK is Saudi Arabia's main European trading partner and the Saudi's main supplier of military equipment. The leadership would definitely notice if we stopped trading with them.

The prospect of the Saudis sourcing most of their military needs from other suppliers is less clear than you think. Remember that Saudi Arabia's main enemy in the Arab world is Iran. Iran is a major strategic ally of Russia, so the prospect of significant Russian arms sales to the Saudis is unlikely. Saudi Arabia has purchased a few missiles from China in the past but again, China has more of a military supply relationship with Iran.

It is possibly more likely that Saudi Arabia would attempt to purchase weapons from the US if we cut them off. But I suppose we have no influence on the USA either.

Remind me again of all those times we've persuaded the US to do something that wasn't in their interests?

Ok, Octavious, here's a question for you:

Let's say that the Saudis decide that beheading people is a little old-fashioned, and plan to start using gas chambers to execute political dissidents and people guilty of witchcraft.

Let's say that their local industry lacks the skills to build gas-based execution chambers, but a British firm thinks it has the know-how to design and install exactly what the Saudis need.

The British firm applies to the UK Government for an export licence to give it permission to supply and install gas chambers in cities across Saudi Arabia. The contract would be worth several million pounds.

If you were the UK Minister responsible, you'd happily sign the papers and give them permission... right?

If I were a UK Minister? I would look at the proposal in detail and compare it to government guidelines regarding ethical foreign policy. It would fail (in this case as much because it'd be a controlled substance on the chemical weapons convention) and I'd say no. We do have a system, you know.

But surely you are opposed to having an ethical foreign policy, based on everything you have already said in this thread? You support arms sales to regimes who torture and murder their people.

How can you justify denying jobs to UK workers in the gas chamber manufacture industry? How can you explain away the harm you'd cause to Saudi's who might get jobs operating those gas chambers?

Everything I have said about Saudi Arabia has been about maximising the benefit to people and minimising potential suffering. This is in stark contrast to your suggestions that will achieve nothing for anyone.

Now if we found new evidence that Saudi Arabia, for example, routinely executed children, then new action must be taken. But they do not, and the only people who I have ever heard suggest it have been conspiracy theorist types or liars.

They execute people for taking part in peaceful protests against the regime. Some of the people sentenced to death for such "crimes" were children in the eyes of international law at the time of their "offences".

Why is this too low a threshold for action to be taken?

"They execute people for taking part in peaceful protests against the regime"

The Saudi Arabian legal system disagrees quite strongly on that issue. Now, I don't have a huge amount of trust in what the Saudi legal system says, but I don't have a huge amount of trust in what you say either.

As far a sentences for crimes committed by people just shy of 18 go, if you refuse to trade with any nation that gives them that you refuse to trade with virtually every nation on the planet, including us. These were not people bordering on the age of criminal responsibility, they were people who in this country would be old enough to get married, join the army, have sex, vote (in an increasing number of circumstances, and quite possibly all in the not too distant future), live on their own as independent members of society etc etc. These are people who knew what they were doing, knew the possible consequences, and did it anyway.

@Octovious it's just you seem so ready to judge the brutality of certain regimes (al Assad, for instance) and so hesitant to judge the brutality of others, when there's no more solid evidence in one case than in the other, and the only difference seems to be who's giving more profit to your country...

Have the war crimes Saudi Arabia against yemeni people been considered yet?

The Saudi Arabian legal system tries people in secret without access to defence counsel. It is the legal system of a despotic and tyrannical regime. If your best response is "well the political dissidents were only executed after they were found guilty in court" then that's a meaningless, empty defence.

The rule of law does not exist in Saudi Arabia.

Again, it's not just me saying it:

"Court proceedings in Saudi Arabia fall far short of international standards for fair trial. Trials in death penalty cases are often held in secret. Defendants are rarely allowed formal representation by lawyers, and in many cases are not informed of the progress of legal proceedings against them. They may be convicted solely on the basis of confessions obtained under duress or involving deception."
- Amnesty International

@ principians

Millions of people are not fleeing Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is not in the middle of a civil war in which thousands of civilians are being targeted by the government. If Syria was at peace I would support Western engagement and trade to establish influence that could be used to push it in the direction of moderation, as was attempted with Libya. There is no inconsistency.