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Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
18 Dec 11 UTC
George Will at it again. Brilliant!
In 1927, the corrupt politicians of Washington state created a monopoly of ferry rights on Lake Chelan to a company owned by cronies. Today a pair of brothers have a case challenging this monopoly and Will writes brilliantly about it. If you European and not American don't waste your time.
3 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
19 Dec 11 UTC
Theocratic Tyrant Vaclav Havel Dead
http://www.countercurrents.org/parenti191211.htm

9 replies
Open
Niakan (192 D)
20 Dec 11 UTC
Why are there bad players in the world?
Rant to follow:
60 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
18 Dec 11 UTC
Does this site work on Blackberry?
Just curious.
18 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
20 Dec 11 UTC
24-7 gives me the tingles
Just watched the episode one of Flyers-Rangers and, man, is it ever good?
2 replies
Open
dubjamaica (0 DX)
20 Dec 11 UTC
Live Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=75335 5min turn JOIN
1 reply
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
16 Dec 11 UTC
A Message from the Mods
1) Please join me in congratulating FK on his promotion to Admin
2) I have drafted a set of guidelines containing every possible scenario I could think of. It is being reviewed by the rest of the mod team now. Although Mods will still have autonomy, it will serve as an official reference for us, so we can do a better job at making consistent decisions.
75 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Dec 11 UTC
Predict the future of Nationalism.
It may be useful to look at the history of Nationalism...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/405644/nationalism

I suppose it is also useful to note how nations educate their young about nationalism...
10 replies
Open
Niakan (192 D)
09 Dec 11 UTC
Face-to-face Diplomacy in NYC
The website told me to write a four-line summary because my post was too big :oops: I'm organizing a Face-to-Face game in New York City, with the hopes to eventually create a "proper" F2F community! Pitch follows.
19 replies
Open
youradhere (1345 D)
19 Dec 11 UTC
Simply a Replacement for Simply Diplomacy
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=74369#gamePanel

England is in good position, two builds coming. I would strongly recommend joining.
0 replies
Open
noiseunit (853 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
How do you define metagaming?
I am curious to know a clear and definite description of metagaming and at what point does playing with friends become a violation.
39 replies
Open
Baskineli (100 D(B))
19 Dec 11 UTC
Hosting a game at my home
I want to host a game at my home with my friends, showing webdiplomacy map on TV screen and using it as move validator. Is there a way to enter orders for all of my friends, using only one user? Some sort of 'game super-user'?
8 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
17 Dec 11 UTC
Maniac Invitational for GR 200-300 Players
Any of these players or others with GR 200-300 fancy a game?
The Czech, Diplomat33, mr.crispy, Spell of Wheels, Countess Tillian, JECE, Yellowjacket, Ursa, WhiteSammy and dD_ShockTrooper

21 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (848 D)
19 Dec 11 UTC
Interrobang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang

Let's discuss‽
7 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
17 Dec 11 UTC
Rail Baron
Anyone else play this game?
Playing with a bunch of people now; probably the best non-war board game I've played.
17 replies
Open
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
EOG - SoW Summer 2011 Game 2
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
S01: Austria, England and France want to be friendly. Of all the suggestions France's sounds best, maybe too good? Austria wants a DMZ for Boh/Sil. Opening F Kie - Hol and maybe bounce England in Belgium.

A01: Complicated negotiations around Belgium, with France and England. I suppose we all try to play each other, which is awkward if there is to be three way alliance. I suggest England to take Denmark and hope to turn England and Russia against each other. France supports England into Bel as diversion, so it is free for me to take. Before the builds the suggestion of a WT comes up. WOOT. I'm all for it.

B01: England objects to a fleet in Kie, ok, so F Den, A Kie, everything set for the WT against Russia ... Or not, E builds F Lvl, F Lon, apparently without telling everyone. Great, no WT then, thank you very much indeed.

S02: Well, E wanted the WT after all, pity. Luckily I started talking to Russia about going against England before the builds. A lot of talking and explaining, but at last an agreement on coalition against E. Norway to Russia, Denmark to me. If everything goes right, England will attack Russia unprovoked, proving my trustworthiness, ... well sort of. If Russia does as suggested an added bonus is the locking up of StP.

A02: France promises support into the North Sea, and a self-standoff in Burgundy as reassurance. Still, moving Holland to Belgium leaves the former open for a retreat and this is why France and I agree on a double standoff. I am trying to convince England to attack Sweden, but to no avail. Russia does a sensible move and gains Norway but is still blocked up in StP. However, Russia also gains Bulgaria and has now 8 SCs and a prime position to gobble up Turkey on its own. Something has to be done.

S03: Russia can only loose 2 Scandinavian SCs with English help, which means a lot of talks with England and France. The idea is that England gains as much Russian SCs as it will loose to France. And I may gain Sweden. Why England prefers Denmark over Sweden I don't know. The plan worked, and now France can take two English SCs and I certainly get one and maybe a second, if England plays along. Interesting developments in the South, if I am lucky the 2 Turkish units bind 5 Russian ones, and the North of Russia is open for attack.

A03: I offer England support against France and Russia, but only the latter is genuine. In addition I will take Denmark off England. That's not very nice. Russia wants me to vacate Sweden by attacking Norway, I consider it for a while, but Russia with its divided forces is probably my next endeavour, so I decline in a vague manner. This all worked, and I have two builds to celebrate.

B03: France advocates an all out attack against Russian and Italy. There is only one problem, we are not guaranteed to get Edinburgh and Norway respectively. Also rumours indicate that a F/G alliance would bind the other five countries in a grand coalition. So we are working on a great deception, with builds that can be interpreted as hostile to each other, that 2 French armies and a fleet in Kiel and army in Berlin for me. I work on England to let me land in Yorkshire, either to get France into Edi, or to stop the French advance should all of this have been a trick. England offers support.

S04: The deception worked, the professors decry the clash of France and Germany, people are very susceptible and offer help and advice. Denmark is in Yorkshire, the NS is secured and Sweden supports Norway in case of a Russian attack. In the South I am talking with Austria about moving into Bohemia, and Berlin to Munich; extra pressure on Tyrolia, either to help France or to block. Surprisingly Italy takes Vienna and Austria is in Silesia, it would have been nice to know that.

A04: To stab France or not stab France ... In the end I decide not to stab, as 1905 might prove more devastating, when France's fleets move out. I am also expecting Russia to hold Norway, so I don't bother attacking Sweden, but rather support hold Yorkshire, just in case. Turns out I could have taken Sweden and now France is a build up. Austria asks for support into Vienna and I'm happy to give it, but I still cover Berlin with Munich and move Ruh down. Should Austria move to Munich, I can at least kick him out next year.

Emperor Maximus takes over while I move from what is Wales to Silesia on the map.
----

B08: I take over from Emperor Maximus again. France nicked Belgium, which means I have to disband a unit and as I am shifting momentum east, I decide to disband Ruhr. France promises to build in Marseille.

S09: France has build a fleet in Brest, but makes it sound as if he is surprised that I have kept my word. In the East I'm poised to take StP, Russia warns me about doing so, but there are no real alternatives. What is more, in apparent fear of the Juggernaut, France proposes a move towards a draw, for which StP is necessary. I also plan to take London, France and I squabble a bit about London, but in the end we decide to be pragmatic about it, and see how needs it for a build.

A09: Ouch, France took Holland and moves into the Ruhr to take Munich, so no builds despite taking StP and Edi. In my opinion, France is endangering his chances of a draw if the Juggernaut continues, but France thinks differently and he seems bitter. I talk to Russia, explaining my move, but of course he would like StP back. I'm happy to compensate, but would prefer his fleet to be gone.

France's attack on Britain is surprisingly uncoordinated and I don't loose any ground there, but Munich has fallen and I chose to disband.

B09: I decide to build an army, a fleet might be more useful, but an army threatens Munich and so I promise Russia support into Munich which he declines.

S10: I cannot keep Berlin forever, so I decide to attack Holland, and leave London open. This year France is repositioning rather than attacking, which is more like him. Oddly enough, Russia is attacking the North Sea unsupported, so this makes me wonder how closely France and Russia are working together. I send a note to Turkey pointing out that if the Russia was primarily his ally Russia's moves are a wee bit strange.

A10: A tricky year and difficult to decide what to do, I am hoping France assumes I would defend London, so I don't move there anyway and decide to attack Holland. This leaves Kiel open, but I am gambling that neither side is willing to concede it to the other.

Not quite the miracle of the House of Hollenzollern, but for some reason Russia and France do not get their act together, and Kiel remains open, and I take Holland, but loose London. No builds, but it could have been worse, much worse as France informs me in case Russia would have agreed to his plan, which would have put a French fleet into Kiel!

Elsewhere in the world confusion reigns as well, a support for Italy to attack Triest, a Turkish thrust into Rumania.

B10: None. Russia offers the olive branch because he is concerned about Turkey, but wants me to put a fleet in StP. I agree and I implore him to take Munich but to no avail, but he promises to move the fleet. Still I decide to go along and shuffle the units around, maybe I can keep Kiel that way. Turkey offers me survival if I help him to solo by not giving his intentions away and slowing down France. Should he think I betrayed him, he will move towards a 3-way draw and hence my elimination. I point out that Russia might be aware of the danger without my interference, and then I would gain nothing. There is no answer to that, nevertheless I inform Turkey that Russia contacted me about a ceasefire for redeployment, but I also tell Turkey that this might be a trap, as Russia is a bit too concerned about who is moving first.

S11: I move away as promised, Russia however takes Kiel, leaving Berlin undefended. Still, I receive an apology and explanation: France commanded the attack. In Britain I make moves to swap London for Liverpool, maybe Russia would help me there, instead of giving more centres to France while keeping the entrance to central Europe open. Elsewhere, Turkey moves towards Russia in earnest, but does not get very far. Still Russia looses a centre to Turkey, which means no build for Russia.

A11: With the Russian fleet in NAO I am asked by Russia what I would like it to do. Very funny, how about attacking France? Not bloody likely, so I say what I really want but also that I think Russia is much more likely to do France's bidding than mine. Maybe it makes people think that this is not what I want, but it is a bit desperate. I am in danger of loosing Holland so I decide to give it up anyway and convoy the army to Denmark.

France has taken the North Sea, but I took London and kept Liverpool, still, with the loss of Kiel and Holland I'll have to disband a unit. No unit is comfortable, so I decide to disband StP. I won't tell Russia as he has no builds but I let Turkey know what I'm planning to do, but I don't get a reply.

B11: Disband StP from me, fleet build Smyrna from Turkey. So, either Turkey distrusted me or he is planning to stop his attack on Russia. Eventually I do get a reply, which basically assumes that I'm privy to Russia's plans which I'm not. The deal is the same, if I help Turkey solo I might survive, which is undeniably true. Unfortunately I cannot help Turkey much, though I hope that the disband in StP will draw Russian units from his border, or preferably, out of distrust to Turkey, it won't, so I be able to keep StP. Anyway, at this moment, I think France has the greater chance to solo, so I try to rally him, without apparent success.

S12: Not really sure what to do, I think France won't defend the North Sea, but rather convoy Belgium over, so I'm only using one support, and I hope that Russia will not be persuaded to support France into Edi. I'm moving Yorkshire to Edi and Edi to Lpl.

The result is not ideal, I have the North Sea, which is good, Belgium is open, Holland isolated, but Edi has fallen, and a French army is in Wales. I retreat to Clyde, which is the only possibility. Also Italy has not shown up, which gave Turkey an advantage as he could enter Tyr unopposed. At the end of the year Italy will be down to 2 SCs, so I might outlive one more country, huzzah! Also, France chose not to stab Russia, and has therefore forsaken his chance of a solo.

A12: Things are moving fast, Russia considers a deal helping me into Edi for support into Holland. Turkey contacts me again, with his plans to stab Russia, the idea is that I get Russia to move to StP and Sev, thereby securing neither as both will be bounced. It is quite tricky as Russia takes me up on the Holland support despite me arguing against it. In the end he does not offer any prospect of survival or draw or anything while Turkey's solo does. I therefore use a mess-up in the planning to not support Kie - Holland and move Norway to StP instead. Russia attacks both Munich and Kie, France finally takes Liverpool and Turkey stabs Russia by taking Budapest, gaining 3 SCs to total of 11 in the process.

There is an argument on how Italy's CD benefitted Turkey in the global channel and the forum, I put down my view, yes it did benefit him, certainly by giving him Tunis, also maybe by giving him 2 Italian SCs rather than one, though Turkey disagrees here, and a good shot at the rest. It may be enough in the end for Turkey to win the solo.

R12: No retreats for me, but there is a lot of press between Turkey and me, trying to convince me to throw the game in his favour. At least I have to explore other opportunities and I talk to Russia. He harbours hopes of a draw either with France alone against Turkey or with France and me against Turkey, but makes a diplomatic blunder by not promising me a position on the draw outright (again!), and apparently my SURVIVAL depends on my usefulness!!! Well, what about being useful by not stabbing you both in the back, because there would no reason do to so if I had a place in the draw. But apparently this is not what Russia wants and in fact France, as I suspected, has no intention to work on a draw together, but he will rather play until the end ... his?, Russia's?, mine? ... who knows, certainly not Turkey's!

B12: Two disbands, the problem is I don't know who I have to defend myself against. My TA points out the necessity to disband Clyde as it could have been destroyed, the other one is Denmark. Denmark is quite a nice disband, it can look friendly to Russia, but at the same time takes away the possibility to hold Kie, which may tempt France.

S13: Not sure what to do at all, Russia wants me to move into Den, but if I move SKA, Norway could fall to Russia, which is something I would do if I was Russia. I think that London is lost anyway by the end of the year, so I might give up Edi just as well, and move NTH to Den, SKA supports Norway and Edi to NTH, or not, as is turns out as this order gets lost with all the changes.

Russia has lost Kie and France makes moves to take London. Both Turkey and France urge me to take StP, well it's a good move no doubt, but highly predictable, I only hope that my crap moves from the spring would make Russia think I lost it completely and wouldn't think of moving there.

A13: Norway takes StP and SKA covers Norway. Russia asks me to tap Kie and I am happy to do so. I also support London into Yor, about the only sensible think London and Edi can do.

France has taken London, but I have Yorkshire, and StP. Russia has taken Munich, much to the displeasure of France.

B13: No disbands for me, but a lot of heated press in global chat. Russia wants to know why I took StP, well otherwise I had little to do in a stalemate line, as France aptly puts it. Turkey things he's won already, but not quite, not if the West acts in unison.

S14: Apparently the little event from last year cleared the air a bit, and press is again more friendly. I offer France to move the army in Yor off the island, because I expect him to disband and rebuild to secure his southern flank. To me this seems the only way if he wants to retake Munich and Berlin, to secure the draw without Russia, but apparently now France is fine with Russia in the line and draw and there is still a French army in Britain, which threatens Edi.

Once again I have to square the circle, helping Turkey agains Russia, so that a Turkish army is in Moscow as soon as possible, but I also have to make moves to secure Berlin, and in case France is still wishing to attack me I have to secure the North, so that I have a chance of survival until Turkey grabs the win and lastly avoid any disbands if possible

Instead of tapping Moscow, I am in it, which is unexpected, but easily reversible. Nothing else untoward has happened, only Liverpool and NTH remain to pose a threat, but no moves to take my centres.

A14: Moves to complete the stalemate line. Discussions between Turkey and me and France an me about the possibility to kick out Russia from the draw, but so far we would lack the armies to secure the stalemate line afterwards.

S15: I am moving my units around because I can (Moscow is still free) and because it would give me a better handle to kick out Russia. I have now 2 armies in StP and Liv and fleets in Norway, Baltic and Prussia. In principle I could convoy Livonia into Berlin, and France could take Mun, but that leaves Liv open and hence endangers Prussia which would mean that Berlin's support for Mun could be cut.

A15: Neither France nor I have strong feelings about kicking out Russia, and so neither of us moves in that way, I do however move the fleet from Norway to Sweden with destination of Gulf of Bothnia. Once there it should be possible to kick out Russia safely.

S16: Well, a short communication from France about kicking Russia out, but we are thinking along different lines. I'd like to wait for the fall and my fleet in GoB to cover Livonia, France has different ideas, probably involving a convoy, how this can be done safely I don't know. So, I don't tell Turkey anything about it although he suspects things ... by comparing time stamps!!! Anyway, I am hesitant about supporting Turkey unbeknownst to him into Mos, to force another Russian disband, but in the end I decide against it, if something goes wrong with the moves against Russia there is one SC as buffer.

The move went alright, sort of, France apparently misordered his fleet to Portugal, but no harm done. Russia is disappointed, understandably so, and then it's over ... Turkey has put his draw vote in.

Many thanks to my TA, goldfinger, who always had very helpful and clever suggestions, most of which went like ... Get E/F/I/A/R/T to so something .. SHOUT at him AND DON'T STOP SHOUTING until ... I think every recipient of my press could clearly attest that I failed in that respect miserably ... I am clearly not the shouting kind ... But I have learned a lot about the way Goldfinger is thinking about the game, which will come in handy in the future. I think it is great that there are experienced player who offer their time to do the job of a TA. Because we live in different time zones we were not often online at the same time, but we still we exchanged ~100 messages, I'd say.

It was thoroughly enjoyable game, I know that you, Yonni, had some bad feelings towards me in the end, but as I already said in global chat, I am glad that it came this way and that you were included in the draw. I am not going to say that I tried to play Cachimbo, and get him to draw by kicking you out, but if that was indeed France's plan than it was brilliantly executed. If France and I really had strong feelings about not including you in the draw, we would have cancelled our draw vote. And I wanted to see if you would recant your position of never throwing the game into anyone's direction.

Thank you Cachimbo for taking the risk of a solo, which kept me in the game and more importantly which increased our press drastically and it was a very enjoyable communication/ If there was no other reason for me to cooperate with Turkey, this would do.

Thanks to Scmoo for a great game, I did miss our pre-stab press a lot, you seemed to go against Cachimbo's grain right from the start, but I found our press very and our actions in the West very entertaining. Afterwards I sometimes did not know what you were up to, which was intended no doubt, even right up until the end. You say it was diplomacy and it worked, fair enough, but maybe it helped that there was a clear common goal.


Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
Right, some one has to start here it is. It looks awfully long much longer than in my text editor. So feel free to skip.
Slyguy270 (527 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
lol, longest post ever ;) but wow, i cant believe how turkey came back!
Yonni (136 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
"Yonni, had some bad feelings towards me in the end"

Just skimmed and I was going to touch on this in my EoG. But, really, I didn't. I was just trying to guilt you into a draw.

Alright, I'm done posting here until I actually type mine up.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Well! That's German efficiency for ya! (was that racist??? ;-) )

Thanks for that Pep. Like I told you in private, I had a blast chatting with you and you were a great partner, both reasonable and sensitive.

I'll try to post mine ASAP. Soooo much to do!
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
As in ... it is not ;-)

It surely would have been more efficient to use less words.
Don't give me too much credit Pepijn. Ultimately, it was your decisions in the game and the wording of your press that enabled things to go the way they did. I just wish you had bounced in Ruhr in 09. I had solo hopes for you until then haha. But you did wonderfully.
Also, excellent EOG
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
@Pepjin: From 1904 to 1908, what would you have done differentlly? Would you have remained loyal to France or stabbed him like EM?
I'm lieu of Pepijn not being online, I would venture to say that he would have stabbed. I pushed the stab hard to both him and EM
Of course. That was a totally justified stab. The question is where Germany went wrong in the years 1906-1908. I believe it has something to do with not being able to get Russia as an ally.
being France's sub TA, I can say the boot-Russia-from-draw move was something I suggested to Scmoo. glad to see it was taken up... there was no reason for Russia to have survived that (I can only assume the draw was out of charity)
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
That's a difficult question, my rapport with France was excellent before, but in the end I probably would have done it, as an SoW is an ideal test ground to learn the art of stabbing, and otherwise the game would have been a bit boring I thought. I also might have tried to secure Italy as an ally, which might not have been possible though, because Italy was always non-committal.

I was sorry to learn that Scmoo took it very badly, but I suppose he got his revenge later on. However, prior to the stab I was always anxious that Scmoo would suspect things and the window of opportunity seemed very small with my army in Britain.

And this reminds me to thank EM, who kindly stood in for me and made Germany the primary country in the West until I took over and messed it all up with Ruhr moving to Kiel.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
@PE: There are some hints as to why Cachimbo hit the draw button before Russia was out in the old thread: threadID=73979.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
or even threadID=739795.
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
Alright, here we go: SoW Game 2 EOG's:

For the following End of Games, I'd like to take some time and analyze people's games and try to state where I believe were some general good points and some areas of mistake. There were points of both for all players in the game and regardless of how it ended, I hope you all took something away from this experience, especially that it doesn't matter how your present situation seems, it can always change. I'd also like to say thank you to all of you who made it possible, both the players and TA's and goldfinger for taking time to organize it. I'm glad I had the opportunity to be a professor, for better or worse. Without further ado, here are my final thoughts in alphabetical order by country:

Austria (acmac10):
You had a really rough ride almost out of the gate. I was as surprised as you were to have Italy Lepanto in S01 and then storm Trieste for what could have been a fortunate guess. It looked like you were going to have 3 people taking you out by F02 but you hung in there and actually made brief progress. S04 threw me off quite a bit with a bizairre move: A Gal-Sil with A Rum doing precious nothing. It seemed evident to me that Italy was going to fight you and as long as he had an army in Tyr, you'd have been better off staying close to home. This move, to me, was the beginning of the end. I think had you returned a unit to Vienna, you'd have been able to possibly retake Tri and possibly Bul. I'm curious about the press going around that made that option a reasonably sound one. It seemed like you had a decent ally in Russia but units stationed in Sil and Gal seem to have burned that. From there, the map saw 3 countries united to divide your soil. Afterward, it looked like you got desperate for survival and tried to strike out against anyone in order to have at least 1 unit on the map for 1906. I had initially predicted that you would be one of the members in the end game because your TA's stats for Austria were really strong. If you post to your EOG's, I'd be curious to know what was happening around 1903 that made you switch gears so much after that. It looked like you had a really clear course between 02 and 03. Your biggest success was the rebound you had starting off a not-so-successful year. Your biggest downfall was the move to Silesia. It's considered German/Russian and it's not often a place for a stray Austrian early on. I don't really have any advice I'd like to give, because I think that you were dealt a rough hand which left you in the dust.

====================================================================

England (BenGuin):
Going into F01 looked really great for you. It was almost picture-perfect. Russia with only 1 unit in the north, a German/French bounce in Burgundy (probably arranged), France moving a fleet to the MAO, life was grand. Then came the convoy to Denmark. It was nice to see 2 builds but the builds didn't necessarily stack up to where you were positioned. Your army meant that you were gunning for Germany but the builds said you were moving on France. I think one of your 01 builds should have been an army. With F and G hot on your tail, an army on the Island early on would have prevented some of your losses. Some of it was also that you were dealt a raw hand since Russia joined in on the foray starting S02. Part of me would have cut my losses and attempted to stalemate someone and with all the French fleets in the water, I'd have started there. If you can stalemate an enemy, apply some diplomatic savvy, it often translates into someone rebounding on a new target. At that point, you were systematically reduced down to 1 center by the end of 1904 but still had a unit hanging around being a pain in the neck for another 4 years. I wish you'd have capitalized on that a bit more instead of logging on to submit a hold order. It looked like Russia would have used you for a bit longer. Your biggest success was the 2 build 01 year while your biggest downfall was the double-fleet build. My advice, if you even log on and read this, is don't give up. You gave up way too early when you were still a benefit to someone around you.

====================================================================

France (Scmoo472)
To begin, 1901-04 went beautifully--nay--picture-perfect, for any French player having 2 builds in 1901. By 04, you had dominated England, had a solid alliance with Germany, and were poised to strike Italy with a precision dismantling. Heck, in S05, you even had your foot in Tunis, even if you weren't going to keep it. Then came the fall of 1905. If I remember correctly, it was just prior to the 05 season that your original TA left and you were by yourself. I had been predicting a German or French stab of the other for quite some time because it's awfully dangerous to leave that much space open along a mutual border, and in the end, it bit you in the rear. The German stab was a particularly brutal one having your new enemy go +2 centers and you -1. This is the stuff stabs are made of. Somehow, over the course of the next 3 years, you survived the onslaught and by 1908, you were back in the saddle. Fortunately, Germany made a second enemy in Russia, and biting off more than he could chew, was unable to focus on the direct attack on your land which turned in your favor far more than Russia's. The return to glory was almost as beautiful as your beginning. I'm more apt to say that your initial game was better than the latter part, but that's what happens when things go as they did in 05. Your biggest success was by far the turn-around in 1908 to turn the tables on Germany. Your biggest failure was the vacating so many units along the F/G borders, especially while Germany still had an army on the English Island. I believe that if you'd have waited to move away from your centers until after Germany vacated the Island, then you'd have had a serious chance to solo. My advice to you is to try to not leave yourself vulnerable. Always assume that if someone can stab you, then they will.

====================================================================

Germany (Pepijn)
Things in this game looked really good for you longer than they did any other player. Your game was smooth for the first 6 and a half years. The stab of France went nicely and you were on your way to taking him apart. The problems started in the fall of 1907 when you issued the moves A Mun-Sil and A Ber-Pru. The counterstrike at Russia didn't pay off. Russia was already moving south back to fight the Italian, but when you double-moved against him, it ensured a R/F for a long time to come that, in the end, cost you more than you bargained for. Had the Italian not gone into CD, then you'd have been eliminated as a result of taking on too much at one time. My idea is that if you count the number of units of France (your primary enemy) and add to it the number of units that Russia has, you need more units than their combined forces in order to pull off the Russia stab (either that or a Turkish ally). The idea is that in any given situation, you can never dedicate 100% of your units to an offensive, but the defender can and will devote 100% if he's able to. The reason you can't have 100% attacking is that you've always got units coming into play which could be a year out from the fight, you've got units in transition to the battle areas, you have to often use a tactical support hold to prevent the enemy from gaining on you, and many times, you have to leave units somewhere else to peacekeep a mutual border to another player (like you had in Scandinavia with Russia prior to that conflict). EM started the French fight, and by your own admission, it was one you'd have engaged in anyhow, but to move on Russia after he's backed off was the mistake. You pretty much held your own up to 1908 but between 08 and 1913, there were little gray/brown explosions on the map from disbands in many of the seasons as you continued to lose ground to the flood. The Italian CD in 1912 helped a bit, and when it finally came to light that Turkey was moving to solo, this forced the map to review things in the west and organize a sort of Western Triple to stalemate Turkey as much as they could. I have to congratulate you that over the course of the next 3 full years, you set yourself into a position to be needed where Russia was expendable and in the end pulled off the dramatic end-game draw. Your greatest success was everything up until the Russian duel, especially the French stab. I'm curious to know how you'd have approached the stab differently had it been you doing the stabbing instead of EM. Would you have moved Belgium in F05 or left it where it was? Your biggest failure was attacking Russia. I believe that, had that not happened, you would have had the chance to solo, especially if you were able to talk Italy onboard for the French conflict. I can't say that entirely because you still had a stalemate line to cross at some point, but it could have been you at 16 or 17 centers and not Turkey. Heck, the game might have 2-wayed. My advice is to really think twice about taking on a new enemy.

====================================================================

Italy (BenGuin)
1901: I love the assault on Austria. Many people don't take the opportunity to do it when they can, and oftentimes when they do take it, they find a R/T in the mix. Your timing was really good because Russia taking on Turkey was vital to ensuring there was no Juggernaut. It goes back to my belief that the best conflicts Italy can engage in is a 2v2 conflict, even if you technically weren't working with Turkey. I believe there has to be 2 wars going on in the east for Italy to make adequate ground. The thing that worried me was in 1903, England was essentially defeated and you had no build that year. Your fleet had no business moving to the Eastern Med that year, and your army was useless sitting on Tunis. Had you gotten it onto the boot in 1902, the French stab would have been less effective and you could have rised trying for Vienna instead of wasting your time supporting a hold on Trieste with the Tyrolia army. Had you instead gotten your Tunis army to Albania and received a build that year, then the French movement into Piedmont wouldn't have been as unbearable. That part was your fault. The following, I can't chalk up to you mostly. The F/G forced east to bind together and confront the new power and you felt obligated to trust that the R/T wouldn't move on your centers as you retreated to hit France. The German stab did way more harm to you than it did to Germany because you were caught with your pants down. Where 1904 was amazing, 1906 was as equally devastating. The part that was your fault in the stab was not reading the board. I saw Turkey simply sailing his ships lazily about the Eastern waters. A05 looked fine. I'd have considered DMZing centers along our mutual border and Turkey seemed compliant, but it begs the question: If Turkey can't help in the fight, then what's he doing? This sort of "dead weight" has to be turned into viable units capable of holding the stalemate line. This comes in one of two ways: either allow him to move north into the non-center zones, or eliminate him and use his centers to build Italian and Russian units. I have to congratulate you in slowing the R/T to almost a halt over the course of the next 5 years. Sure you lost ground, but it was slow in going. Then in 1912, you simply gave up. Not sure why, but it was even worse than what England did in the north with his lone unit. If you've got units, then you're useful. Others may not think so, but give them the opportunity. I've played in games where I was both a 1 unit Janissary and merely dead weight. You never really know how your opponent will view you unless you make yourself available. Your greatest success was the assault on Austria, your biggest failure was definitely the CD, but barring that, it was keeping the army locked in Tunis for way too long. My advice is the same as England: don't give up. CD's ruin games, both for you and for the others that play them.

====================================================================


Russia (Yonni)
Your opening was a rather shaky one, and certainly one I don't do under ordinary circumstances. Of all Russian openings, moving Mos-Sev is not one I consider. The problem is that it leaves the Black Sea uncontested. Frankly, you're lucky Cachimbo didn't open Smy-Arm. If he had, then you'd be kissing your butt good-bye. There is an upside to the opening, though, and it's that it's better than the more-oft seen A Mos-Sev, F Sev-BLA. This move not only fails more times than it's worth, the opening move even means that the only unit you get to move in 1901 is St Pete, and that move is an obvious one. Ukraine is, in my opinion, the strongest choice for southern-bound Moscow armies. That aside, 1901 went as well as any Russian could expect and you were out of the gate with promise. Over the next few years, your assault on Turkey went really well, but the north was left unfortunately vacant. This, coupled with Tall-Poppy Syndrome, was what led to your eventual downfall. In F02, I'd have moved St Pete to Nwy and supported with Swe. This would have given you the power to build a much-needed fleet in StP nc. Through 1904, you were reduced to a commoner again and no longer the king, but had thankfully ironed out your differences with several nations. 1906, was the year of the fail for you. The Italian stab left you with a mouthfull of Italian hind end, but greed caused you to try to bury the fork deeper only to lose the center that you were sure to gain. The next 2 years seemed almost unbearably miserable as you tried season after season to get a leg up on Italy but to no end. On top of that, the bouncing around for and against Germany left you virtually ally-less. From there, it was all downhill from there. Your game was really strong for a while, and I always recommend being the top dog in any fight, regardless of center differences, and your biggest success came early when you capitalized on the strength and speed of Russian units when they're unleashed. You had Turkey by the balls and it was amazing. Your biggest failure, however, is that I get the feeling that you regularly put a ton of stock into my commentary. It seemed that at various points in the game, many people were ordering their units based on what I said in my commentary (not everyone, but most), but you more than the rest. This made you predictable and in the end, it seemed to alienate you from almost everyone on the map at one point. My advice is to try to keep as many allies as you can. Focus on 1 enemy unless your situation can honestly warrant two.

====================================================================

Turkey (Cachimbo)
Wow is all I can really say. In 1901, the CD hurt terribly. You lost ground with Austria, and especially Russia and in 1902 you selected the wrong ally and moved on Austria while Russia slipped in the back door through Armenia and began tearing you apart. At the end of 1902, you had to have been on high panic and it looked like you were going to be the first one out the door, but when Russia got stabbed, he was forced to make you a new ally, back off the fight and in 1904 you were back in the mix. Where 1904 took care of Russia, 1905/06 was what took care of Italy. I knew the instant I saw you shuffling your fleets in the waters that it was a shark about to attack. In 1906, the attack came as it coincided with the German stab of France. Opportunity after opportunity continued to open the door for you to stick around and even thrive. Through 1911, you and Russia were literally the new F/G of the map. As it was, continual vacancies by Russia along your mutual border gave you yet another opportunity to stab. 1912, Italy went into CD and allowed you to turn a good portion of your forces toward the face of Russia. Through 1912 and 1913, you took your time moving to cross the stalemate line and this is the point that I think you gave yourself the draw. I've done this in too many games where I let opportunity pass me by and instead of soloing, I settle for a draw. In the first Masters Tournament, playing as Germany and had Hellalt (Austria) so angry at Spell of Wheels (Turkey) that he was going to give me the solo. I had the season to win and all I needed to do was stab Austria, but I chose to keep my promise to give him the survival and Turkey was able to talk Austria into calming down and forcing the draw. Probably my worst moment in my Diplomacy history. Opportunities like that come once a game, and if you fail to take hold of them, then it means the difference between Win and Draw, Draw and Survive or Survive and Lose. For you, your greatest success was turning things around at almost every opportunity to get yourself back into the game from a losing position. Your greatest failure was not crossing the stalemate line when you could. It might have happened that you could have waited to stab Russia for another year to put France at ease a little more, or bypassing Italian centers temporarily to squeeze a Turkish fleet into the MAO. After you can get into the MAO with at least one unit, especially a fleet, then you have the freedom to do a lot of damage. Without that advantage, then you find yourself sitting on your hands.


To close, I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this game, it was a really great experience for me which I will undoubtedly do again in a future time. Thanks to goldfinger for putting it together and everyone for following through, and even to PE and EM for subbing where needed.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Very neat analysis! Thanks for everything Tru!
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
I appreciate it Cachimbo.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
Not as much as I appreciated reading your comments every year. I got to understand you a lot better because of it, but I also gained tons of perspective on the game (and *my* game too). It was great to see you take it quite seriously but never come off as boring or patronizing.

And I'm really looking forward to the next time we cross blades!
Pepijn (212 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
Yes, thanks for this and all your other analyses before, Tru Ninja!

I can honestly say I did anticipate your commentary every turn. Sometimes I did not like what I hat to read, when I had done something foolish and sometimes you had me on tenterhooks when you hinted at things, but did not want to give them away for the fear of influencing the game. So thank you for being a great prof!

@Cachimbo: Are you now adding professorial analyses to your sources for the personal dossiers of each potential opponent? Soon there will be no one left, who wants to be a professor, lest it can be used against him!
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
08 Dec 11 UTC
I don't mind. I knew my thoughts would be analyzed if I put them out there. I hope to play some of you in future games as well.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
08 Dec 11 UTC
I fear that I can't put as much efforts in my EoG as Tru and Pepjin did. RL is very demanding right now and if I don't do a shorter version of it, I may very well never produce one at all.

1901: I arrange for Italy to attack Austria while I work with Austria to attack Russia. Meanwhile, Russia is being convinced that we're gonna be pals so I can take the BS. And when everything is going perfectly, I NMR... Eurg.

To make matters worse, the commentary insists that people check orders on the pop-up map or through the archives. Yonni might not have seen Austria's support otherwise, who knows!?!?! Things are going to get difficult now...

1902: I cross my fingers that Russia has not seen it or is now buying my bullshit. I do my best to apologize to Austria, but I know he's in bad shape and won't be much help. Italy still owes me for the intel on Trieste, but he's busy and our cooperation can't lift off.
Russia is in Arm. BLARG! Things are not going better... And in the fall, Austria will join Russia to make my life hell. Not cool.

Now down to 3 units.

Spring 1903: Russia is going to get Smy, but he's in trouble up north! WOOT! I just might have a shot at turning things around if I can convince Russia that I'm a better and safer friend than Austria. There's also Italy, who finally helps me to a new centre! I'm in hell, but I see ways out.

Autumn 1903: Russia walks in.
Meanwhile, I've managed to convince Italy to look west, Austria to help me back into Bul in exchange for Greece and stab Russia, while I talk to Russia in order to set up an attack on Austria and Germany with Italy's help.
If memory serves me well, this is the birth of TAIR, wich will rapidly become TIR, a huge alliance meant to stop GF from killing us all! What's great though, is that I'm in command of the alliance and I'm sitting in the back, safer than anyone else, free to talk with France and Germany and try to cause trouble.

Spring 1905: misorder.. WOOT! I managed to get back in the game and I miss my chance to stab Italy... Blarg. But that's okay: Russia is gone, Austria is too far to do anything, and Italy is under lots of fire in the west. I'll stab next year with Russia's help!

From there on, I'm playing for the Jugger, Italy in sight. But Russia is just way to open for me to ignore for so long, so I start chatting things up with Italy again. Until Italy CDs, I will more or less alternatively stab Italy with Russia's help or stab Russia with Italy's help. The board is set up wonderfully, and I manage to make most of my stabs look like necessities or mistakes. Hence, I'm always able to be friends with my stabbee again.
I then set out to play with Russia for good. And I do.
But he then opens himself up even more than before. I just don't have a choice and, given my fleets, I know I'm in the draw anyway. So it's time to set myself up for the solo.

Autumn 1910: RUSSIA MISORDERS WHILE I'M STABBING HIM!!!

That was the key, as far as I'm concerned. That's when I knew I probably had lost my shot at the solo. My aim was to see Russia lose a centre while I took one from Italy as well. I could deal with the two of them for a bit so long as Russia was fighting off Germany and Italy had France coming back down in Spain and I was in Ionian. Not getting Venice was huge for me, because it likely meant I wouldn't be able to cross the stalemate lines later.

I convince Italy that the stab was Russia's idea and that I had no real choice in it. But if he's willing, I'll help him get Trieste and Vienna: plus Russia will never expect it given Tri to Ven!

But I don't support Italy. Instead, I take Serbia!

Now, Italy and Russia are not happy with one another and I have a shot at getting one of them back on my side.


It will take a lot of time and efforts to win Russia back. But I succeed in the end, and we come to an understanding.

(During these last few years, Germany was getting in deep trouble. It was looking more and more like he wouldn't survive the game. That was perfect for me: "help me win, I told him, and you'll survive. Otherwise, you can bet your ass that France and Russia will eat you up to get strong against me." Getting Germany to disband in St-P was part of the help he provided. The plan was always to force Russia into tough choices. I never once kid myself about the solo shot after Russia's misorder, so I knew that if I was to get it, I would have to pull some diplomatic rabbits out of my ass!).

The plan works: Russia is moving north again and is helping me with Italy. At this point, I'm willing to work with him for a while, but then...

Spring 1912: Italy is gone.

I sat by the computer until the end of the phase and changed my orders at the last second. Instead of sending Ion to Apu, I move it to Tyrr. and set myself up for one more gain.

Had Italy not CDed, I would have played another few turns with Russia. He was moving away from our lines again, but I had no immediate intention to stab him. Seeing how stabbing him and getting an Italian centre would help me to 3 builds, I took the chance. And I did so, not because I thought the CD would help me solo, but because it was now absolutely impossible to take me out of the draw.

In fact, I think my chances to win would have been greater with Italy still there. I would have kept playing with Russia until I could make a more powerful stab WHILE crossing the stalemate line around Iberia. Given the way I was controlling Germany in the north, Russia was never going to be a problem.

But then the shit hit the fan with that CD and tension rose. I poorly managed it. Mostly Scmoo's reaction. I wanted to make sure that people got the impression I was soooo sure of my victory that Scmoo would come down, open himself up to Germany, and lose units. Russia I knew was lost to me now, after the stab, so screaming "I'm gonna win" wouldn't change much on that side.

That was not the way to handle things.

And then Scmoo says he wants to race me to the finish... Given that Russia will fight me before him, I know he's got his chances, so I'm going to play it safe-ish and make sure I cover the line. With Germany on my side, no way I'm going to see France solo.

The rest was almost pure mechanics, except for the way the game ended.

I don't want to open any cans of worms, but it's pretty clear that Scmoo and I never got along. It almost felt like he was trolling me for a while, everything he said just infuriating me. Plus, as some of you know, my life lately has been kinda crazy, so I had little patience to deal with the kid. I handled it poorly and didn't find the mental distance to use his attitude against him.

It's weird, huh? I play games with the likes of Babak and MM, whose in game characters tend to be arrogant to the point of cocky, but I rarely get annoyed by that. Even Draugnar or Fasces (not that there are any comparisons) can give rise to some vile press, and that's usually funny to me. But that kid... His misplaced arrogance and writing skills just made me nuts! That's not his fault though, it's mine. I lacked mental toughness.

Scmoo: congrats on that win with Italy where you missed the first year or so. That was cool to see. But this was indeed our last game together, not because you're not a good player, but because I can't seem to find a way to enjoy your company. I'd be sorry about that, but you don't seem to relish my company either so I guess it works out in the end. Oh, and I'll say it here (and let you counter-argue if you want, but I'm done with it): you have no idea of what would have happened had Italy not CDed and neither do I. It was certainly a game changer, but I've made the argument here that it might in fact have been the cause of my NOT winning the game. Oh! And speaking of winning: this was a draw. You ACHIEVED your goals in stalemating me, but you didn't win. Similarly, I ACHIEVED my goal not to be defeated in a game where I very well could have been, and not getting the solo was never a disappointment for me. So we all more or less achieved what we wanted to do... but none of us won the game.

Yonni: You deserved better, if not for your play, for your class and the way you kept the game fun at all times. I'm glad I chose to keep you in the draw in the end. I think I would have hated myself for a day or two had I chosen differently. We've had amazing discussions you and I, and I got to "meet" a really great guy. I've learned a lot through this game, and much of it was acquired through our chats.

Pepjin: I've already told you what I thought of you in private, and it's better like that... !!! Kidding! It's a shame we didn't have more contacts. When I most needed Germany, it was EM that was there. And then, when you walked back in, I needed you less as an ally than as a "prop". That made it less likely for us to exchange our views on the game, though we still managed to do so a fair bit.

To the others:
Acmac: you're way too gullible. In almost every game we've played together, I've seen you move at the whims of the strongest voice. If you want to get better at this game, the only thing I can recommend is to set goals for yourself and use the other ones to reach them. Don't let the boards dictate those goals (but don't be blind to its possibilities).

Butcher and Ben: Quitters. Sad.
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
Well put. You're a really great manipulator, and I applaud that.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
09 Dec 11 UTC
@Pepjin: In my very humble opinion, Diplomacy is a game where the board is less important than the people playing it. If you can grasp something of a player's MO, your chances of success are greatly improved. And because players, here at least, give clues to their approach in more ways then through the action on the board, I believe you should always be paying attention.

The forums helped me tremendously in that respect, and in more than one game. I would even argue that many players here (myself included) are always aware that their forum posts will be read as clues towards their personality and possibly their MO in games. Tru was certainly aware of it.

And thus, even here, in the forums, one is still somewhat playing Diplomacy!
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
09 Dec 11 UTC
The fact that what we post in the forum is an indication of our MO in game is the only reason I do/say nice things in the forum and whine/complain like hell in games in order to survive.
Breaking down and crying seem like an effective way to get some sympathy.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
Thanks for the EOG, Cachimbo! Was that `prop' as in "a person or thing that is a major source of support or assistance" or prop as they have on stage and in movies? Surely it must be the former! ;-)

My previous comment to you was by no means an accusation nor did it require an explanation of either of you (though I am grateful for your comments) and the second sentence was spoken in jest. I just imagined myself in the future playing a game against Tru Ninja, and I wondered if I would go back to this analysis in an attempt to figure out his approach. It is different with you where your EOG adds to the image I have of you already.

However, this consequently means EOGs are (or at least can be) somewhat edited, to conceal your approach, which is something I'll have to keep in mind.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
09 Dec 11 UTC
I think it would actually be a mistake to try to predict another player's actions based on the forums. At least in the upper echelon. From what I gather, the decisions are made based on what's happening on the board, and the relationships built in game. Moreover, it would be a pain in the neck to go back and read someone's comments to try to trick them or convince them.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
09 Dec 11 UTC
Right.

I'm not saying "boil it all down to the truth about this or that guy". I'm rather suggesting that everything on this website can be used to form an impression of the player to guide your thinking. An "impression" is by definition kind of imprecise, not a truth one can manipulate objectively.
"In my very humble opinion, Diplomacy is a game where the board is less important than the people playing it."- QFT

If that is the lesson people take away from SoW, it surely has succeeded.
Soo...can TA's play their students sometime?
Cachimbo (1181 D)
09 Dec 11 UTC
Well Goldie, you sure as hell owe me one! I have not forgotten your Italian follies yet.

@ Bas: In my case, it was less a lesson learned from SoW than THE reason why I wanted to play Dip in the first place.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
That should be interesting. Sometime next year maybe?
Yeah, I'm winding down the number of games I'm in. I'm trying to limit it to 1 or two, so after all my Masters games start wrapping up (they have a nasty habit of going well into the 1920s and 30s) I can join, probably in January
Yonni (136 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
Yikes. This might be long. And incoherent. I've patched together some of the ramblings and musing I've written along the way and some new commentary and really really just rambled.

Make of it what you like...
Yonni (136 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
So, I took notes for the each move for the first 10 years but I quickly realized that it wasn't just uninteresting but also nearing 3 pages long so fuck that. I'm just going to talk in generalities and point to a few key moments.

First off, I really enjoyed this game as I've said many times already. I had unique and intense interactions with just about everyone on the board and that's why I come to this site. As Cachimbo touched on already, we ended up chatting a ton. It was nice to get to know about him as a person but we also ended up discussing diplomacy strategy a lot. I'll be the first to admit that I probably am too open about my motives in diplomacy. I was particularly open about it this game because it was a SoW and he obviously had a lot to teach... And with that segue I'd like to say a few things about the SoW format.

On TAing –

Coming into this game, I was pretty green as to tactics and openings. That is where my TA was very helpful. Although there was some criticism as to my opening, I at least learned why what I was trying to do and was right or wrong. However, as the diplomacy got more complex and discussions lasted until the very end of the phase, I ran into problem. I'd get an idea in my head and spend the entire phase talking to players according to those moves. By the time I had discussed with my TA why those moves may have been weak, it was too late to go back on my moves without completely ruining whatever trust I had built.

I'm a player that relies very very heavily on communication. My tactics, particularly when this game started, were very weak. I think I make up for it somewhat by communicating actively. So, when it came down to whether or not I'd change my moves last second because of what my TA said, I often wouldn't. I didn't feel like that was fair on my TA as I'm sure it was frustrating for him and – to some extent – a waste of his time.

On the commentary –

Yeah, it was sometimes distracting. And sometimes it influenced my moves. And sometimes I think it revealed things to my opponents that I may have gotten away with otherwise. That being said, I really enjoyed it. Not sure why I found it so incredibly entertaining but there was something thrilling about waiting to see what someone else would say about my moves.

On the way I played the game –

I definitely played the game a little differently because it was a SoW. Mainly, I spoke more openly about my moves with the other players. I really strove to see why people moved the way they did and what worked for them. If the game were more cutthroat, I probably would have been more secretive.

Years of note:

S01 – How different I was as a player before this game is really evident when looking back at my notes for this year. Turkey and I discussed the juggernaut but I was really naïve about it and never should have given up the BS like that.

S03 – Wtf? Really, I moved like that?

04 to 05 - I was really happy and proud to be able to turn my downwards momentum into a juggernaut. However, I think I completely overestimated how much trouble I was in

06 – I'm feeling good and I think it's time to try make a move to put myself in a strong #1 position. But, god damn, I fuck up. Twice.

1) I show a general lack of understanding as to the mechanics of the game and lose Vienna. I expected to have a build coming in Warsaw but without it my attack seems very lame. Kicking myself about it but, whatever, I was still learning
2) This is more subtle but is a much bigger and deeper seeded problem with how I play diplomacy. I gave Serbia to Turkey. I was in control of our alliance, or at least should have been, until this point. I often underestimate my position and am unwilling to lean on other people in the game. This really is THE lesson that Cachimbo et al taught me this game. My record non-gunboat record currently is 7 draws and 2 defeats with 0 solos. I am far too happy to settle and compromise. It's going to be difficult to do but I'm really going to try work on this.

09 – Really, I give Turkey Trieste?

S10 – We're well on our way to a 3WD. This is looking good.

F10 – France and I bicker of Kiel and in the end we both offer it to each other so neither of us get it which is really frustrating.

Ok, enough with those notes because now I want to touch on a bigger subject.

Why did I leave myself so open to Turkish attack?

The answers is because I truly believe that, even if he stabbed, he would not have been able to solo. By this point, I recognized Cachimbo as a strong player and figured that he saw that too so stabbing me did nothing but reduce the chances of us eliminating Germany (and maybe even France).

You know what? To this day, I still don't regret the move. I probably wouldn't do it again but I don't necessarily think it was the wrong move. If France had acted appropriately, we never would have come as close to losing as we did. Combine that with Italy's CD and Turkey grew quicker than I possibly could have predicted.

Now this is where the diplomacy gets frustrating.

To me it is OBVIOUS what everyone should do. Let's stop Turkey! And I am completely baffled as to why France would be resisting. So I post a copy of a message I sent to Turkey outlining to him who I won't throw the game in his favour and that I'll do everything in my power to stop his solo. Scmoo completely misinterprets what I said and goes off the handle.

Now I'm in a real sticky situation and I offer the world and more in order to get G/F to join me in stopping Turkey. I probably was too lenient with Germany but at that point I just wanted to prove that the solo was not doable and that Turkey was wrong to stab me. To some extent I proved that but, still, I should have been eliminated.

In the end, I think Scmoo is lucky that I was as dedicated as I am to stopping the solo. I believe that he should have shown a willingness right off the bat to move against Turkey.

I feel a little cheated in the end game. Firstly, like I said, I think Scmoo misplayed and it was only by sacrificing myself that he ended up coming out ok. Really, please don't take this comment personally. I just think that if I was more concerned with my own survival then I your verbal barrage (and likely attack afterwords) of me would have cost you the game. Furthermore, it forced me to bend over backwards and let Germany walk all over me.

Secondly, I shouldn't have been alive for the draw at the end. I do appreciate it but it seems a little too contrived my taste. Cachimbo, you did it out of spite for Scmoo and I really did try encourage you to do it so there's some resemblance of gamesmanship there. However, it seems to tarnish the integrity of the game somewhat – whatever that means.

Lastly, I think Italy's CD has a bigger effect than you, Cachimbo, let on. With another turn of diplomacy I probably could have gotten the move against you with a little more finesse instead of the hurried good-god-we-need-to-move-now mentality that happened. And, on that note. FUCK YOU BUTCHER CHIN. I will tolerate just about anything in diplomacy but FUCK YOU for abandoning a game that I put so much time and effort into. You are the scum of the Earth.
Yonni (136 D(S))
09 Dec 11 UTC
Phew. Not as long as I thought. But still. Good like deciphering that.
Yonni (136 D(S))
10 Dec 11 UTC
Oh, and I forgot something about the ending.

I was very very upset with Turkey for not attacking France in Med when Scmoo made the move against me. It was completely and utterly impossible for France to safely eliminate me without risking the solo. It was an unnecessary risk and I would have like Cachimbo to have proved it.

I was particularly upset in light of the fact that Cachimbo was so cutthroat as to eliminate me and go for a 3WD but wouldn't have the wherewithal to punish Scmoo for his move.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
10 Dec 11 UTC
I hear you.

I too have learned something there: I won't be so defensive when trying for a solo and the draw is in the bag. I should have kept hitting Spain or Mar.

I did "punish" Scmoo, insofar as I forced a 4 way when he had moved to a 3 way, but that's not really punishment, I agree.

As for Italy: I want to stress, once more, that I exaggerated everything in how I perceived the CD. I've said so much in private to my TA and other players commenting on the affair. I believe I've touched on the subject in my EoG as well. I still believe, however, that my solo chances would indeed have been better with Italy still in the mix. I know it sounds absurd, but as I said: my shot at a solo was mostly through diplomacy. And I had a good grip on Italy. I could have placed myself better before the strike.

But that's all hypotheses and the game didn't go that way.
Yonni (136 D(S))
10 Dec 11 UTC
Yeah, it's hard to speculate retrospectively but I'm no sure how you can say you'd have a good grip on Italy diplomatically after marching into Venice. I'm almost positive that he would have joined me in attacking you.
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
10 Dec 11 UTC
Wow, Yonni, I really appreciated the EOG. Very introspective. I think that if you continue to do self-analysis like that in future games, it will really help your game play and diplomacy continue to mature.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
12 Dec 11 UTC
Thanks for the EOG, Yonni!

I took a different view of the end game than you, in particular, I thought, that despite the initial difference in units and SCs, we were pretty much in the same boat, and I think I said as much to you, so I take umbrage to the `lenient' as it suggests an authority that I quite frankly think you didn't have.

Without France's EOG it is difficult to say whether he misplayed it, it is my opinion that he initially had no interest in having us both with him in the draw. When you took Munich (excellent move by the way!), he admitted as much, that he would have had Europe locked down, so only the North remained, and either of us (but not necessarily both and one would have been expendable) could have held it, or maybe even France himself it he could have taken Scandinavia in time.

So this approach, while cutting things fine, is perfectly valid in my opinion.
Yonni (136 D(S))
12 Dec 11 UTC
If you had kept fighting him, then I don't think he would have been able to get his fleets to the Mediterranean in time. I had to make room for you in the draw so you wouldn't keep pressing him. I don't think I went about it the best way possible but had scmoo kept on his war path against us and had we kept fighting him, then I really doubt that he would've been able to get to the line in time.
Pepijn (212 D(S))
12 Dec 11 UTC
Yes, that may be true, I was thinking more along the lines of that Scmoo would have us fight over the spot in the draw next to him, (if I had to take StP by force I would shave needed most of the units which would have been a threat to France) which in turn makes me thing that I (or we) should have tried to pool resources and act in unison as a third joint third country, which is I think what goldfinger had in mind.

Ach well, maybe next time :-)
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
12 Dec 11 UTC
I'm a bit irked about scmoo not posting his EOG's. I'd have liked to have seen his thoughts. I like the dialog going on. What about the TA's? Any thoughts from them?
Pepijn (212 D(S))
12 Dec 11 UTC
He said he would ... maybe it just takes him a bit longer.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
18 Dec 11 UTC
Hmmm... so that's it?
Yonni (136 D(S))
19 Dec 11 UTC
Finally got internet at home so I can get more active in this conversation if there's anything else you want to discuss. Also, I would be very interested in hearing Scmoo's EoG.
I believe Scmoo said he'd be leaving the site and, well, has left. So I think this thread is over and thank you everyone for participating


48 replies
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Dec 11 UTC
Ron Paul is officially an idiot...
I just watched him tell Jay Leno he is against seatbelt laws. His argument that people have a right to do with their own body is all fine and good, but seatlbelts keep the driver behind the wheel and in better copntrol of their car, therbye protecting the lives of others. He has just proven he is an idiot that can't be put in power.
114 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
13 Dec 11 UTC
MadMarx ABI-VII EoG's
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=70171
56 replies
Open
johnnyw (100 D)
19 Dec 11 UTC
Fast game?
want a fun game look up fast paced game for fun
0 replies
Open
dep5greg (644 D)
18 Dec 11 UTC
Best Alliance in the Game?
What is the best alliance in the game? France-England? A western triple? Juggernaut? Austria-Russia-Turkey? what is the best one?
32 replies
Open
Baskineli (100 D(B))
18 Dec 11 UTC
Railroad Tycoon
I remember this awesome game, and the amount of time I've "burnt" on it. Is there a more modern version of it, or something close to it?
4 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
25 Nov 11 UTC
School of War Winter 2011
Since the original thread is several hundred posts long, consider this the kickoff for SoW Winter 2011
106 replies
Open
Ernst_Brenner (782 D)
18 Dec 11 UTC
Misorders?
Anyone else experiencing odd misorders in more than one game?
4 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
16 Dec 11 UTC
H. Kissinger's Associates
Invitation follows.
15 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
Everyone's Holiday Reading? (Suggestions?)
Well, it's the Holidays--sorry, it's "CHRISTMAS TIME," for all those "War on Christmas" folks--and I know we have a lot of avid readers on the site...and I just finished the two novels I had left over from my semester's worth of free reading ("The Brothers Karamazov," which was decent but 200 pages too long, and "Tess of the D'urbervilles," which was good, if not a tad anti-climactic) and I was wondering--what's everyone reading? Suggestions?
16 replies
Open
Sebass (114 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
POST LIVE GAMES HERE
A list of new games, closer to the top of the forum
13 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
jugernaut
can someone please exlpain jugernaut
i cant really understand how it works and why it is such a strong aliance
the times i tried to do it didnt really work
the rest of the players unite against it and i cant see the advatage
14 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
17 Dec 11 UTC
Craziest man in the world!
I just had to share this. It's awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQc7VRJowk&sns=fb
His comment "Well, I came extremely close on that one!" is somewhat of an understatement.
8 replies
Open
Sebass (114 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
LIVE GAMES HERE
Need more people for an Anc. Med Gunboat
1 reply
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
17 Dec 11 UTC
Want to try the Ancient Med variant
I haven't played it so I set up a game here: gameID=74927

WTA anon 2-day phases 200 pt buy-in
3 replies
Open
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