i've played a few gunboats, but i've given up on them. Diplomacy without talking just makes no sense whatsoever.

i find that the chatter on the global Channel and the negotiation in the Private channels is the main appeal of the game for me... otherwise it reverts back to being a game of risk... without the dice...

Plus as a Psychology Major its interesting to watch disputes that arise in the Global when a "stab" occurs. Because this is effectively anonymous, even with user names, most of us will never meet, when a dispute pops up, people revert back to their "primal" selves... its pretty interesting stuff.

Apart from the Live games thread, What's the point of a gunboat should be the other constantly reused thread, the question arises every so often, and the answers will tend to be worse and worse since noone wants to repeat the same arguments.

LMAO, sorry, as a newbie, I was trying to understand the appeal, I can see from a stand point of just learning the mechanics of the game, but after that it just becomes a game of mutant chess... if I wanted chess I'd play chess... guess thats why I dont play "gunboats..." lol

Some people are social outcasts. Bitter, sad, lonely rejects, exhausted by years of futile attempts to connect with other people, effectively emotionally dead, they turn to gunboat as a last refuge. For other the reasons are spiritual. They have taken a vow of silence as a way of getting close to God or Nirvana or whatever you want to call it - a desire to achieve oneness with the universe. Gunboat has its place.

Gunboat is the tactical aspect of the game without the influence of lies. It's sitting there, looking at the board,trying to guess what your opponents are going to do with no information to go on and knowing they're doing the same. A lot of a normal game of diplomacy is about playing the player behind the country and in gunboat, you don't get that. It's purely a chess game.

Public Press is what I consider the ultimate form of Diplomacy. It is by far my favourite variant because it represents how diplomacy works in the real world. There are no secrets, its your ability to convince someone against another's, all the cards on the table. You get in a game with six people that know how to talk, and it will easily become the most difficult and most rewarding game you've ever played. Too many normal games are reduced to abbreviations and minimal caveman speak, public press REQUIRES that you know how to write with poise and power.

The variants aren't for everyone, and for the purists out there, no Diplomacy exists but regular. Give them a shot, you might find out you like them, you might even learn something. My plethora of gunboat games helps me recognise the best moves to make regardless of the press involved, so instead of the press dictating my moves, my desired moves dictate the press. And public press makes you measure lying much heavier.

And yet, it isn't chess. In chess you get to react to your opponent's moves with your own, in gunboat you receive no such luxury. I don't at all consider it a "lesser" form of diplomacy, but like I said, it isn't for everyone. Some people are terrible at it and avoid it like the plague. Others think it's too easy a game.

@Geofram. Hmmm... this is the sort of explanation that I desired, I can see each variant serving its purpose in the bigger picture, thank you, I will have to invest some time in both the gunboat and public press, instead of writing them off as distant cousins of Diplomacy.

Gunboat is not purely tactical, it never is when 7 good players are playing. You'll find yourself poring over orders much longer than in press games, it's your only source of information. Hiding supports to people you want to ally with is a delicate art perfected by the best. Take a look at any of The Czech's or jmeyerd's gunboat games. Being able to co-operate efficiently without speaking is another delight in itself. I don't see it as a variant of a diplomacy, it's a different game that happens to be played on the same map. I can understand why it probably doesn't work for some people, but anybody who thinks it's simple is gravely mistaken.

"Public press represents how Diplomacy works in the real world"
Ha, especially after Wikileaks, it most certainly does :D

"Public press represents how Diplomacy works in the real world"

@Geofram: You really think that? :) Diplomacy is supposed to be practiced behind closed doors. If wikileaks showed somthing it is exactly that.

Something that resembles "public press" diplomacy in the world is the UN. Name the wars that were prevented or decided upon there.. Or anything else useful for that matter that came out of that place in the last thirty years. No, diplomacy is best done in target groups, common ideology, try to accomplish common goals. Dont you think?

@Geo - "Gunboat is the tactical aspect of the game without the influence of lies."

Really? You've never offered a support knowing it wasn't going to be expected and therfore not accepted only to lure your opponent into thinking you'll report that support but turn it around on them? There may not be lies of the wirtten kind, but your can most certainly lie with your orders in gunboat.

*repeat, not report. Strange typo that. Being as I was on my computer.

because i am not such a good english speaker then live games with 5 min phase are hard for me cause i cant comunicate and make the moves on time so gunboat is a good option for me
also there is a way of playing gunboats knowing somehow what your ponents are going to do and act acording to it,sometimes players get to a mutual understanding without a word,lets say two small players see how astronger player is going to win so they stop their figth and try to stop him.
you can also suport someone moves or holds and that makes the other players understand you
i think gunboat is the art of tactical diplomacy and is a very interesting variant

For the explanation of gunboat to a player that didn't understand it, I left out the fact that communication sometimes happens in gunboat through orders. But a majority of players do not play this way, particularly in live games where gunboat is most popular.

And it is impossible to lie in gunboat. The very definition of a lie demands this. You cannot simultaneously communicate one set of moves and perform another.

Incorrect, Geo.

lie1    /laɪ/ Show Spelled [lahy] Show IPA noun, verb, lied, ly·ing.
noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.

I think definitoion 2 clearly shows that making a set of moves intended to deceive another player regarding the followup moves is a lie.

@MrcsA
Secrets don't keep in real world politics nearly as well as they do in Diplomacy. When you think about what the game emulates, half a year of coordinated troop and naval movements, you're just not going to have that kind of cooperation. If the US moves their fleet, the whole world knows about it. Diplomacy today is all about what you say knowing everyone is listening.

That argument aside, public press Diplomacy is by far the most challenging version of the game you can play. And I'd argue that it is closer to F2F than regular press is simply because in F2F, everyone knows who you're talking to at any given time. They may not know what you're saying, but everything from the body language to the length of discussion is more than enough of a hint.

you can lie
if you suport hold a player this season and atack him in the next for example or make him trust you several turns to get him open for stabing him when the moment is rigth
imatination ppl

A lie in itself MUST be a false statement. An order in Spring 190X can say nothing of the same unit's order in Autumn 190X. I'll concede that there is an element of deception, but it is not a lie. Deception and lying are two different things.

Hmmm... Interesting variant. Public notifications alerting everyone to any correspondence. Not the body, just the date and time and the players involved. It'd have to be coded but would more accurately represent F2F. Of course, a rule would have to be set that all communication about the game had to be contained within the game. I.e., no PMs.

2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression.

You can deny it all you want, but it is clearly a lie by the dictionary definition if it intends to convey a flase impression. A support move offer that you do not intend to follow through on is a lie.

Of course, a lie is in the intent as well. Breaking a promise or not followng throuhg is only a lie if you never intended to keep it. If you intended to but the game situation changed, then it is just a broken promise.

A lie is NOT intention to convey a false impression.
A lie IS conveying a false statement.
Which you cannot do in a gunboat game.

Oxford:
lie: An act or instance of lying; a false statement made with intent to deceive; a criminal falsehood.

There's nothing you can STATE in a gunboat game that can EVER be false.

Since you are fond of Oxford...

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/lie--2?region=us

The noun from includes
- used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression:

The verb from includes
- present a false impression; be deceptive

Seems Oxford agrees with me if you read the *entire* definition list and not selectively exclude the ones that prove you wrong.

"A lie is NOT intention to convey a false impression."

No, it is defined as conveying a false impression though.

From Oxford (above)
- present a false impression; be deceptive

Have you never heard of a lie of omission? That is a lie without saying a word. You don't have to communicate through language to lie.

I stay away from gunboat because of the fact you can never bash sense into people's heads. And you can never enforce common etiquette. I understand what everyone is saying about conveying intentions through their moves and such, but you can convey intentions to someone and they could just suicide on you for no reason. Three days ago I played a Russia who let England solo because I took Tunis from him (Russia) and placed fleets in Aegaen to prevent his fleet builds from getting out into the med (which I had already plugged)

A lie by omission implies some communication exists. Implying that something is untrue when it is ("Why would I do that?") is a lie by omission, not saying anything is not.

By the strict definition from Oxford (Geo's dictionary of choice), it can be an act or an item. Anything that "presents a false impression" is a lie. That is my only point. Lies don't have to be via language. Communication doesn't have to be through language.

Please see my profile and go down till you see "-- On Gunboats:" for my opinion.

Basically it is a 'holy war' here with people either loving it or hating it. Gunboat is purely tactical, and as Octavious said: "...is only one step more enjoyable that the infamous Pacifist varient" (please see the full quote in my profile for the giggle).

That was a good laugh fk.