@gramilaj:

According to your theory, why did God choose that specific time, two thousand years before us, to make this show?

@Gobbledygook Because that was the time period where the death of one man would make it into the history books and impact/emotionally impact the most individuals. Many people have died in painful ways since then, and many will die in the future, but that man/God made the record of history, which is sort of impressive. From God's perspective, I would think (presumptuous) you have to strike while the worlds population is relatively small, or the relative impact is going to be less.

@spyman Duh, some of us have a stupid version of free will (the bizzare self imposed limitation on God's omnipotence), and are unwilling to accept the capital TRUTH.

So we know the truth, but we choose not to believe? Is that possible? Can one know something is true, but not believe it? I don't get it.

Absolutely someone can know something is true but not believe it. If I'm a schizophrenic, I can believe I'm not crazy at times, but during my lucid moments I can know absolutely that I'm crazy. The mind is a fragmented thing.

Besides, that's a bunk argument that I never presented. We have free will, so we can determine what we "know is the truth" aka in many situations what we believe is what we "know" is the truth. I "know" the Earth is flat, I "know" the atom is like a blueberry, I "know" the sun comes up in the morning, etc.

Or a better example of someone knowing something but not believing it. Peter has heard many times and believes the city he calls Londres (he is French) is pretty. He is kidnapped, and placed in London, he learns English by immersion and doesn't meet anyone who speaks French. He thinks the city he is in in ugly, so he would assert that London is ugly.

He knows Londres/London is ugly, but he believes London is pretty.

Copyright Saul Kripke.

@Gobble the big question is why god waited 200,000 years.

@gram - That one makes no sense.

And the sun does come up in the morning, from a certain point of view. That's why we call it a sunrise and a sunset.

Obi,

So, assuming the biblical story of Adam and Eve and the entrance of sin into the world is correct, and we have basically have a human race that is in open rebellion against it's Creator, let me proceed from there. And let me define sin as anything that doesn't fit the "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself", which is basically a summary of the ten commandments and I submit, the root of the sin issue. (Sin would then be putting yourself and your interests before others, or worshiping, treasuring, valuing something or someone more than God.)

So if this is basically God's law for human relationships, that we are to hold God as of ultimate worth above everything else, and love our neighbors as ourselves, then breaking a such a law requires justice. As humans on earth we are all familiar with this concept. If you break a law, justice is required. If God is all powerful, hypothetically speaking "could" He forgive without justice? Well, let me submit that this may be the wrong question. What about the question "would" or "should" he forgive without justice?
If God were to forgive without justice, would He be a good God? Consider a rapist and his victim. If God were to simply forgive the rapist with no justice, He has wronged the victim. Where is the justice in that? If God were to punish the rapist with no mercy, who would follow God? If by the definitions above we have all sinned, then the justice that God tells us is required is death, and who would follow God if he were completely just with no mercy? Might as well collectively stick it to God as best we can. But what if there was a way to both provide justice, and mercy? This is where Jesus dying on the cross comes in. If Jesus kept God's law for human relationships, and thus was "perfect" he can then represent the human race where Adam failed. Then he willing takes the punshiment that the human race deserves, mercifally giving members of the human race an opportunity to be reconciled to God. Justice has been carried out, the "blood sacrifice" made. From the rapist's perspective, he realizes his sin carried the Son of God to one of the most horrible deaths imaginable, and yet witnesses God's mercy in allowing him forgiveness of his sin because justice has been carried out on the Son of God. The victim also can see God's justice, though here I fully expect people will argue with me. The victim (who by definitions above) is not without guilt in other areas in their life, though the rape was not the vicitm's fault in any way. If the vicitm of the rape has been forgiven by God and understands God's justice being appeased at the cross and his offer of mercy, then she can accept that justice has been done (having seen her own lawbreaking send the Son of God to the cross), and her view of her attacker changes because she sees that as she has been forgiven she is now enabled to forgive and that God has offered forgiveness to that person. If we are all sinners, we are all expected to behave like sinners, thus seeing God take the justice part out on his Son and extend us mercy, allows us to do so for others, even those who have wronged us.

I relate this case study as I know a girl who this has happened to and this is how she explains God's justice and mercy.

Hope this helps explain things some Obi.

@Draug, which one makes no sense?

My point is that the sun coming "up" is a matter of perspective, it's basically as true as its definition. If you literally think that the sun is rising into the sky every morning, it's a false belief, despite that it seems backed by some pretty strong evidence.

The second one made no sense but I think that is because the words were backwards. If what you meant was that he thinks Londres is beautiful despite knowing London is ugly, then that makes more sense because he is romanticizing Londres from his upbringing even though experience tells him London is an ugly town.

And that is true of most romanticized fantasies. New York is romanticized as the city that never sleeps, full of life and energy and a great place. But the reality is that it is dirty and many parts of it downright dangerous. But even people who live there fall for the New York presented in the movies despite their first hand knowledge of it's darker side.

' If you literally think that the sun is rising into the sky every morning, it's a false belief, despite that it seems backed by some pretty strong evidence.'

i believe, the sun is rising relative to my motion. Which i take to be stationary or the purposes of simplifying my thinking - and given Newton, yeah, even Newton 300 odd years ago, all reference frames are equivalent.

So this prespective is relatively true. As true as any other... also it's just a convention - constructed for modern language to be usable... not some attempt to describe accurately the physics of the universe... so thanks for playing. but *Fail*

the sun is literally coming up - where up is defined relative to my position on the earth (ie defined as away from the center of mass of my local gravity well) -you may note that the sun doesn't go straight up... unless you're living on the equator... it kinda curves...

Yes, you have defined it well, and it's basically as true as its definition.

The sun may not come up tomorrow? Damn I shouldn't have bet my bottom dollar...

why didn't god come down in human form to make the covenant with Jews and take the Jews out of Egypt? Why did he make a people his chosen with his covenant if we are all tainted by original sin? Why did his acolytes whipe out the 613 commandments he made with the Jews when he forgave the worl for original sin?

@Leif: "And let me define sin as anything that doesn't fit the "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself", which is basically a summary of the ten commandments and I submit, the root of the sin issue. (Sin would then be putting yourself and your interests before others, or worshiping, treasuring, valuing something or someone more than God.)"
+1000, that is exactly what I believe
also, +1000 for the rest of your post as well.

WOAH...

This one took off without me...gotta go back and read this all now...

I find it very ironic that there is this discussion of proper morals in a Diplomacy forum, where deception and double-dealing are a natural part of life.