Turkey and I did discuss a three way early. He suggested Italy; I said I wasn't comfortable as we were too close and Italy lacked expansion capabilities.

During the end game, we didn't do it because I didn't trust either Turkey or Italy, as I wrote in my earlier response

I'm going to write separate comments For each year I think.

1901

I was very happy to get Turkey for this game. It's one of my favorite countries to play. The talking started quickly as usual with everyone trying to get a feel for what we were all about. Russia immediately mentioned the Juggernaut. I stated that I may be interested in such an agreement but I wanted him to focus more in the north as I did not want to get pinned too much towards the south. I think a split of Austria with Russia favors Russia more than Turkey and Russia's future progress is also much easier from that point. I definitely didn't want that. Russia then moves south. That basically took out the possibility that I'd work with him for longer than I had to.

Austria was saying a lot of great things but was very unspecific about everything. I didn't have a very good first impression and was immediately suspicious of him. I still wanted to work with him possibly so I made no plans against him but decided I'd need a lot of information about him from the others. We made a move agreement in Spring but he didn't follow through with it. He did make big gains at the start though. I got the impression that he thought that he was in charge at that point. My suspicions of him grew. I really started testing Italy at this time.

Italy was polite but very weary. He didn't seem to like Austria much so I was happy to hear that. As Turkey I'm always concerned about an I/A alliance against me. I was working hard to make sure that wouldn't happen. Italy was also more specific about his ideas and moves. I liked that. Italy was also very helpful about what others were up too. This would later be very helpful for me. In fact it would probably save me.

Germany said that if Austria and I wanted to attack Russia that he would help. So my first question was "how?" He had no answer.

England and I exchanged the normal friendlies both agreeing that our future success would probably be determined by our friendship. Both of tried to determine if the other was attacking Russia which we both said "Naw."

France came out very direct. He immediately claimed concern for an attack from England. I thought this was strange so I took immediate interest. Combined with the strange German message I started to think about the Western Triple. Especially when I saw no evidence of hostility in the west at all. Which is funny because apparently France was starting his Juggernaut talk as well. Reading that earlier made me smile. It was the almost silly paranoia about the so called Juggernaut that allowed me to do as well as I did. I used this fear a lot in my future discussions with Russia.

First turn moves were all safe and pretty standard across the board as were the next. Austria did very well I though. After the first year I was feeling a bit nervous. I didn't want to appear too weak and get attacked by the mop. I was a little afraid of that at the moment. My talks with my neighbors had left me uncertain about who would make a good ally. R/A had both done things they had say they wouldn't do and Italy didn't know what he wanted to do. I didn't feel real good things.

Nice idea separated posts for years comments , CK,
I will follow this trend you stated as I was worried my report was going to be too long and hard to read.
I will post mine ASAP

The question about the 3way raised a discussion about the early 3way proposal and I have to say I looked long at going for this triple alliance earlier. I was already in a alliance with Turkey ( but I am skipping steps here as we only allied on year 2 , need to rush to get my report done soon ;-) , although I didn´t trust France like I did trust Turkey then and suspected France would likely move against me, I really apreciated the way he did his business and I thought possible we could come to agreements we both would honour, though suspicious of each other ;-)

I considered this triple alliance would solve some problems that were hammering in my head: I was looking for a draw, as a 2way with such a disposition ( I/T) seemed impossible to achieve even if I where in better position than I was ( how could Turkey get to Scandinavia? even if I could beat France lol, my fleets would hardly reach there, well, a 2way is always hard for any country and I was being left behind because of my delay on taking Austria ( more details to follow). The 3way draw was the best scenario possible for me.

But there was the problem of my expansion ( which was not really a problem for me if I could just make sure to get enough units to assure of being part of the 3way draw ) and that together with the fact that France seemed to be contrary of an I/F/T made me discard this idea.

I considered France was not willing to give up aspirations of taking the Med then, if he wanted to have a shot at a solo. By that time, I thought it would be possible to end the game in a 3way with France later, even without setting that alliance.

I wish to thank the mentors and commentators for their tireless job.
Commentaries and advices have been awesome.

Two part EOG for England..

Part 1: 1901/02

Pre-game: England – good, I like England. I’ve done OK. Hmm – Strategos is France. This could be good or bad.

S01 – Agree Channel DMZ with France. Discuss Belgium as a possible home for English forces. France is keen on a Western Triple – I’m not, tbh. Agree no army in Norway with Russia, in return for no northern opening or fleet builds. Germany’s style I find hard to take to (it’s a weakness of mine), but I encourage Kie-Den.
Over the other side, Italy is in info mine mode, and the RAT triangle seems to all be worried about the other two allying – this is something I can play up.

Pick a neutral opening – Liv-Yor gives me options if France gets sneaky, and Edi-Norwegian allows support into Nwy if Russia gets cute. No one does. Hurrah!

A01 – France proposes bounce in Belgium. Hmm. Relations with Russia seem better than those with Germany, so propose a sideslip – get Germany to bounce in Swe, have Russia dodge it and Eng convoy into Den. 24 minutes to go (3am for me), Russia says Germany isn’t bouncing, so wake up to a failed convoy and a 6SC France. Too clever for my own good – I suspect someone has tipped off Germany.

Remember – Clever isn’t always good (a recurring theme here)

W01 – F, R & G all happy with my build of F Lon – nothing else makes sense, as it looks like the situation with G is repairable if I want to. G builds 2 fleets (!?) and claims to be heading for Scandinavia. F tells me his builds. Russia builds A St P, because he has little choice.

S02 – Agree bounce with France in the Channel. Por-Mao, Mar-Spa, Spa-Gas, Par-Mun expected. Must secure a build in case MAO heads north or supports Bre-Eng in the Fall. Germany is committed to an attack vs Russia, proposing I move north, and he moves Den-Ska, Ber-Bar, Kie-Den. I propose to Russia Yor-Den (Nth convoy), Swe S Yor-Den, and Russia adds the wrinkle of Nwy-Ska. That should work…

The in the east, everyone still seems paranoid about alliances. A/T looks likely-ish, Russia certainly seems concerned. I encourage him southwards, so that if all goes to plan, I’ll be in a position to get most of Germany

A02 – Everyone did what they said they would. F/I looks fairly solid. Russia’s south looks weak, which means he should be a grateful ally, which means I should be able to get more than my fair share of Germany. Warn France that I will build a fleet if he moves north. Aim is to hold Den. Will encourage Italy to grab Munich…. and suggest that France will have to go somewhere else. Also try to find out Turkish intent – a strong(ish) Turkey benefits England, I think. Germany working really hard to get me to stab Russia in Sweden – I think he realises how precarious his situation is.

Orders Lon-ENG (defensive, expecting a bounce), Nth S Den H, Den S Swe H, Nwy S Swe hold, expecting support from Swe-Den to hold

W02: France sails to IRI, at least I bounced him in the channel. Den holds, so I can build F Liv – nothing else makes sense. Worrying signs of R/T – maybe time to change tack?

Part 2 : 1903-end

S03: Try talking France out of invasion – I can hopefully slow him down enough that maybe Italy can take advantage. Russia comes up with a solid plan to exchange Nwy & Swe followed by dislodging Bal (and allows me the chance of Nwy for myself in Autumn if I choose). With Germany still non-committal, go with this plan.

F03: Aargh – France has got round the back, but I had to guess. Picked wrongly. Oh well. Russian switch works, with the added bonus that half the board thinks we stabbed each other. Key learning – What I consider sensible diplomatic language, France considers vague and worrying, hence his continued assault. Decide to stick with the plan vs Russia, and make a guess on Lon V Wales. Offer to support France to Holland if he pulls back – a concrete plan.

W03: Glad I didn’t defend Wales, but an unstoppable convoy to Clyde means maybe I should have tried for Norway for the build. A Edi would have been great defensively, but now I’m going to loose the home islands. Russia is in trouble in the south so at least I have a willing ally, and I can plan to get back there eventually. Italy’s expected build fails to appear  I am sad, as it means France has no reason to turn round – I suspect he has cut a deal with the Germans

S04: Decide that the best chance of survival is to work with Russia & Italy. That means pretty much abandoning Britain. Bounce Liv&Lon to ensure that Wales stays empty, so I can’t loose 3 centres. Resigned to loosing 2 as I need to help the Russians finish off the Germans, who will not renegotiate. Den-Kie to break any support for Berlin, Nth-Holland just in case France goes for it. Moves as I expected (despite what the commentators think). France suggests stabbing Russia – I decline, as ERI can still possibly provide some resistance to F & T.

W04: Hope the Germans are predictable – Nth will support Kie-Hol, allowing Den-Kie. Ask Italy to tap Mun (with French help), and suggest Russia moves Bal-Ber, Sil supporting. A net -1 on the year won’t be so bad, if the sneaky plan works. Liv & Lon bounce again. But it doesn’t – France breaks the Nth support. At least Russia got into Berlin. Need to make survival a priority..so Lon & Wal go

Again, remember, clever isn’t always good..I should have moved Nth-Hel in S04.

S05: Still working with Russia, and get the most unexpected offer from France – as he has massive concerns about the T/I alliance, he’s prepared to back off, and work with Russia and me to secure the draw. Offers like that are so rare (and well thought out), you don’t say no. Therefore, a plan to completely dismember Germany very quickly is designed. North Sea moves to Heligoland, and Den & Swe hold to stop the German assault. France moves into Holland, Bur & Ruhr.

Key lesson – Keep talking, even to your enemies. France kept an excellent dialogue throughout, which meant his offer to agree the stalemate was easily received.

A05: Germany dies, and France decides to let me keep London (very generous). Turkey is going mental trying to split FER up, despite the fact that any move on France will allow his Italian ally out the Med bottleneck, and hand A/I the board…

W05: Build a fleet – woot, some of England is still pink.

And that’s the draw.

Congrats to all the players. For me, not my best game – just a nice reminder that

1) Style is important. I’m always reluctant to give great detail in moves early in an alliance (see Spring 1902 for the reason why), but some people need that. In an effort not to lie, I was too vague and a really good E/F alliance was scuppered
2) Don’t always try to be clever – it only works some of the time. If I had bounced France as proposed, or moved Nth to Hel rather than Hol or the support move, then things may have been different. Clever only works when all the pieces fall into place.
3) You can always learn something new. I’d never seen the convoy to Clyde before – but I’ll remember it now.
4) Keep talking. As long as you have a unit and an SC you can be part of the draw. And there should be lots of draws…

I just say I have been fooled from the beginning. plain and simple. so i do not have to comment much more from my part. thanks everybody

One more note that I'd meant to add about the first year was my taking of the Black Sea. This was the first time I used the Juggernaut talk to my advantage. I convinced Russia that if I let him take Rumania and we bounced the Black sea again then they would all gang up on us. This was true I think but it also gave me a safer position.

1902

The most important thing to come out of this was the realization that Austria was playing all sides. The dialog between A/I/R was a mess in the beginning. Eventually though I began to put together the true picture about what was happening. A was working a deal with me against R. He was also working a deal with R/I against me. My biggest fears were coming true. The mob was coming. Fortunately for me, once we all discussed the various ideas coming from A we all decided to turn against him.

To do this we had to manuever. Again the constant claims of Juggernaut was used to explain the move to Arm to Russia as a decoy for the plans we had against A. He thought that R would surely help him and he wasn't concerned with Italy. He was to support Bul>Rum with support from Arm but as I knew he was taking Bul with support from Rum (he thought) the plan was to take Gre from Bul, and convoy Arm to Bul. I changed the convoy part at the last minute by expressing concern that Aus would make a move against Rum instead lying to all of us and with R's agreement Support move Rum instead of convoying.

This also would have caused an reaction to the Jugg I think except that the spring move to Arm left people still guessing as to what was going on. Was it a Jugg? Or was a realization that Aus was a a problem or was Russia pressured to do it to save Sev? It worked out well I though and was feeling good that Austria was going down soon.

Italy became a confidant at this point and our trust was building. I was now planning the death of Aus and looking at Russia's positioning closely.

Now we start the see the beginning of Frances plans against England and this concerned me a lot. I knew I need a strong England to have a chance at the solo but this was beginning to look doubtful as France attach was well done and successful.

bump

Bleh. This is not too well done, but each day I only had time for a little bit.

Pre-game Thoughts
-----------------

England - I don't know much about him. He seems to be a decent player, but the lack of messages tells me nothing else. Dunno what sort of opponent he would be. A paranoid one.

France - A very well spoken player. He is an excellent diplomat, and busies himself in affairs which only have long-term gain. A strong opponent, and stronger ally.

Germany - More tactically minded. He makes his intentions quite clear, though that could just be his own way of masking himself. I do not think that he would be able to stand against an Angle-Franco alliance for long.
He is pushing me to attack Scandanavia, which would be against Englands wishes. Is he set on attacking England? He is easily offended.

Italy - Good diplomat, and dangerous enemy. Talks should definitely continue with Italy.

Austria - No read on him. He seems like a decent player, though possibly easier to manipulate than Turkey.

Turkey - A decent player, who is not easily swayed. He could be a dangerous enemy or good ally, if one could get him to listen. He is quite tactically minded, and not easily manipulated, as stated before. One to watch out for.



Spring 1901 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
Mine- Moving a standard Juggernaut. I've got alliances with everyone in the east, and everyone in the west. Dunno how this'll turn out, though.

England - While his moves look offensive towards Russia, I cannot be sure. Beware of convoy to Norway from Yorkshire.

France - Moves which shout suspicion towards Germany. He'll get 2 SC's this turn, perhaps 1.

Germany - Very insightful player. He is highly suspicious, and his moves simply radiate agression towards Russia.

Italy - Standard Lepanto, no comment.

Austria - Standard suspicious start, no comment.

Turkey - Standatd Juggernaut start, no comment.

Other- Beware a western triple

Autumn 1901 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
Mine- Damn Germany. Oh well, he let me into Sweden, thankfully. Turkey 'bouncing' at Rum to obscure the Juggernaut. Bounce at Gal to appease Austria.

England - A very tricky fellow. Trustworthy too. His moves are anti-German, and are exactly what he said they would be.

France - A very good diplomat. He is going to the neutral SC gain...

Germany - Good diplomat, though easily angered. He is aligned with France, it seems, and is going after England.

Italy - Has the Lepanto been canceled? Seems he is going anti-Austria without overtly doing so.

Austria - Standard anti-Juggernaut technique.

Turkey - Insightful, or just manipulative? He proposes a truce, but we do not need it, apparently... The move to Smy tells me he plans to attack, and he no doubt used the bounce at Bulg to get into the Black Sea

1901 Builds, Thoughts
---------------------
Mine- Building Mos and Stp, nowhere else I can go. Going to attack England, probably, but really, I could go either way.

England- Not too agressive to me. I have intel that he will bounce at Eng, so that's all good.

France- Standard bit. He's staying neutral.

Germany- This spells trouble for me, or England. Intel says he's heading to England, but one cannot be too sure. I will try to eliminate him first.

Italy- Standard Lepanto build. Alliance still going strong.

Austria- Neutral builds, he could go any way. He's trying to turn both Turkey and I against each other. He needs to go.

Turkey- Predetermined build, no worries, though he could turn on me in a jiffy. I do hope he's not working with Austria.

Spring 1902 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
Mine- Move to Finland to be ready to move in on Sweden once I get Denmark. My moves are purely standby, and quite boring. I wish I could get an SC this turn. Ah well.

England- Expected moves. His relations with France are decent, but they could go sour in a turn. Little danger to me.

France- Standard bit again, staying neutral. He has hinted at going against Germany, but also may go against England.

Germany- What can I say? Fail set of moves. He can't get Belgium without losing Munich, loses Denmark, and can't convoy. He must be diploming quite desperately.

Italy- Expected moves and what not. Moving to Trieste, no doubt.

Austria- Very unexpected moves. Intel tells me that he'll be going all out on me. Not good at all. Then again, he's got no ally.

Turkey- Tricky moves there, and would be viewed as hostile without what I know. If this is a trick made of tricks to take Sev, however, I am royally screwed.

Autumn 1902 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
Mine- Anti-Germany and Anti-Austria. Growth is absurdly slow, but I'll have to deal with it.

England- Decent moves, but he's got to watch out. He'll lose the channel come spring, doubtless, and I may have to capitalize on a stab, else I face destruction.

France- Anti-English moves. Beware an F/G alliance.

Germany- He's trying to make peace with France, or at least defend Munich. He is in a horrid position, and probably will want to make peace with someone...

Italy- Anti-Austrian moves. He gets Tri this spring...

Austria- Defensive moves, he doesn't want to die. Just waiting as long as possible, to try to find an ally. Unfortunately, I'm in no position to ally him.

Turkey- Moves we've talked about. I'm still worried about Armenia, but otherwise, it's fine.

Other- Juggernaut speculation has emerged, and there's no way I can quell it.

1902 Builds, Thoughts
---------------------
England- Defensive build. Only thing expected of him.

Germany- Destroying Hel? That could signal the beginning of an attack upon me.

Austria- Why not Albania? Perhaps he thinks he can still retake Greece?

Turkey- Signals intent to attack Austria, though Con could be convoyed to Sev without warning.

Spring 1903 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- This set of moves should fool Germany, I hope. Norway-Sweden swap.

France- Continued assault on England.

Germany- Odd moves. Ah well.

Italy- Continued talks with Italy are good. Nothing new here.

Austria- He looks pretty damn screwed over. Trying to see if I can get anything from this.

Turkey- He got Bulgaria, though this was expected, I still dislike that army in Armenia.

Autumn 1903 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- More defensive moves.

France- Continued assault on England.

Germany- Heh. Got him out of Holland. Forgot to tell England to move in, though. :p And...he retreats to Liv. Damn.

Italy- Hm. Italy lost Tri, got nothing new. What was that rogue move from Germany about?

Austria- Hehe. Kamakazing at Italy now. I probably won't salvage anything from this anymore, apart from saving Italy and gaining Vie.

Turkey- Gah! My instinct was telling me that was coming, but my 'common sense' pushed it away. This always seems to happen. :p

1903 Builds, Thoughts
---------------------
Turkey- Two armies. He can only mean to go north.

Spring 1904 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- More defensive moves. Didn't get into Hol now, I think F worked something out with G.

France- Continued assault on England.

Germany- Hack-attack on me. :p

Italy- Italy seems to be back in the game. Hoping to have him let me into Vie. I could sure use the SC's.

Austria- Got A/I/R alliance, it seems. Until we finish Austria off.

Turkey- More killing me. He's proposing making me his proxy. Psh. Not likely.

Autumn 1904 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- More defensive moves.

France- Continued assault on England.

Germany- He's continuing to attack.

Italy- Damn. Though I could trust Italy. Looks like a I/T alliance.

Austria- He's gone.

Turkey- Yeah, not being his proxy. Going to try to regain some ground.

1904 Builds, Thoughts
---------------------
France- Anti-Italy fleet build. Glad someone sensed the danger before I did.

Italy- Builds signalling that he's heading west.

Turkey- Moving more armies north.

Spring 1905 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- More defensive moves. By now, we've figured out a plan with France. Hopefully we'll both see this through.

France- Bringing troops around to stalemate line.

Germany- He's continuing to attack.

Italy- As France, but trying to prevent the stalemate.

Turkey- Proposing that I make my own moves, but tell him. Hm....no.

Autumn 1905 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
England- He got into Kiel, good, good.

France- Bringing troops around to stalemate line, which is nearly done.

Germany- He's gone.

Italy- Stalemate line is forming....stoppage is unlikely. Italy continues to talk, explaining why he took Vie, etc. Probably due to a flaw on my part. :p

Turkey- Officaly stopped talking. Moves need little explanation now.

1905 Builds, Thoughts
---------------------
Moves to bring the stalemate into the world.

Spring 1906 Moves, Thoughts
---------------------------
And the stalemate is done. I know I won't be stabbing, France has assured E and R he won't, E won't either; it'd be suicidal.
Italy won't be stabbing Turkey, and Turkey knows that if he stabs Italy, he'll have nobody on his side.
So, it's a draw.

I thought that was very well done. I think you summed up the overall game and I'll dealings quite well. Good job.

While we're waiting for the last of the EOG statements, I'm curious if the commentators / mentors have any last minute words. Spell, for example, said that he felt Turkey 'got to me' when I started setting up the stalemate position - did you see opportunities I did not?

Turkey got to you only in the sense that his dominance threatened the whole board and forced you to start building a coalition. Not that he verbally persuaded you.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to draw a five way is as good as a four way. If you could have gotten down to a three way, I'd say go for it...but having read some of the diplomacy going on behind the scene it seems justified as it ended. The hard part for a commentor is that we don't know what is being planned or what the larger goals are that are being pursued. So it's like being an armchair quarterback blindfolded.

I would have liked to have seen a Western triple. I haven't gone back to look but I think I did point out that it was unfortunate that the veterans were both in the West. Ideally, it would have been nice to have one in the East and one in the West. So I was glad not to see a France/England alliance that swept the board...however if that option was available to you, I suspect that France England and Turkey might have been able to make a 3 way race of it.

It was fun to comment on the game...somewhat challenging for me to provide insight each turn. Sometimes I act out of intuition and to have to sit down and transform that intuition into commentary was a good exercise for me.

Oh...and I liked Ivo's commentary very much. He provided a very keen understanding of the complexities of dealing with triangulations. It's always the third person or threat of the third person that makes this game challenging. Every army is equal until that third one shows up!

bumpity - no more updates from Turkey?

@SoW - you can blame me for the lack of a Western Triple - I pooh-poohed it early doors. Sorry

i would like to say that i think the commentary was fantastic, thanks Spell of Wheels and Ivo_Ivanov. it is a disappointing end to the game, but from the end of game statements it seems that there weren't many other options, and i think it's a good lesson in itself about how to plan for the mid and late stages of the game. thanks also to the Vets, stratagos and Pete U for their participation and teaching, i hope that all the students learned a lot.

i don't think i can handle starting a new School of War too soon, but maybe later this month.

i'll sign up for commentator for the next go-round

any final comments, players?

I'll never leave Sev so open again. ;)