I'd start by saying that enforced social welfare (that is a governmental tax to support the less fortunate) takes the option away from the individual whether to give or not. One can be very generous to those who are less fortunate and still bristle at the idea that of having a government play Robin Hood.

Supporting the less fortunate needs to be something people have to *choose* to do for their acts to have any meaning. State-commanded welfare programs funded by involuntary taxation schemes take that choice away from people; everyone is *forced* to help others. Charity is something that must come from the heart, not from fear of imprisonment for tax evasion.

*piffle* supporting your government in their actions when they try to setup a welfare programme amount to making that choice.

democracies usually have a political party opposing most actions, it is only in the US

...only in the US where you are limited by a two party system, and don't have much choice of who to vote for...

Yeah, your choice is pay the taxes or go to jail. Hell of a choice there, orathaic.

Well, I think the social wellfare policy shoud give the minimun needed to mantain human dignity, ie, food, health, basic education, and there is no other way to get money for that other than tax.
And if you want to do Charity you still can, not only by giving money as you are already paying taxes, but by doing volunteeer work for example.

Draugnar, If you live in a organized society you have to respect the majority decision, so if the majority aproves a Bill that makes you pay more taxes you should pay.
If you don´t like it, try to ellect another congressmen to change the laws. That´s how democracy works.
I really think Democracy sucks, but until now can´t find a better government system.....

The problem is that not every rich person is a Christian philanthropist. If we leave it up to people to choose for themselves whether or not to help the poor, some will decide not to.

Besides, to look at it from the perspective of "the rich choosing to help the poor" is to fail to consider the full picture. Far more sensible is to start from the basis of "How shall our society work together to ensure the best outcome for everyone?"

rdrivera2005 - I believe in covering the minimum for survival including a minimal standard of healthcare. We already do that with public education, welfare, social security and the fact that hospitals don't bill people who make less than 150% of poverty level for their household and adjust the bills of those who are uninsured to reflect their current income levels. The difference gets passed on to the taxpayers. And I always support the MR/DD programs and support my local school board when tax levies come up for renewal (even with no kids, I see them as our future). I've even voted for new levies when they were legitimately justified.

But I don't support a socialist view that borders on communism. I think welfare needs to be reformed to stop the massive abuses and fraud that occur there in and I think our educatiuon system needs an overhaul for the kids as we are teaching to the test now, not teaching to give them a better tomorrow. And I think letting the government run our healthcare and insurance industries is a big mistake as two of the three social programs (education and welfare) are failing miserably and the third (social security) will be bankrupt before I ever see anything for myself, which means I have to pay for the current elderly generation, pay for a future for my children, and put away enough to pay for myself when I reach retirement. At what point do I get to say "ENOUGH!" and take my birthright for me?

@Jamie - not everyone needs or deserves the best outcome. That is the communist in you coming through. Basic needs and a minimal standard of living is society's obligation. Optimnal (best) outcomes are up to the individual to strive for. The goal to imporve ourselves individualy is a great motivator and is what makes us better than the ants who are in servitude to their queen.

Good Lord! My typing sucks today. Sorry for all the typos.

Draugnar, the reason your country's social programmes are such a mess (and you're right, they are a mess) is because they are a makeshift, jury-rigged hodge podge of a solution, often incorporating features that were added to satisfy short-term political goals. Your employment, welfare, healthcare, education and other programmes are poorly integrated leading to loss of direction and duplication of effort, wasting public money whilst at the same time failing to achieve their goals.

Only a whole-system approach can actually have any hope of working efficiently.

And I agree that we should not be like ants. But you have to admire their organisation.

Tell that to the politicians and PACs and other political/legal organizations who insist government agencies aren't allowed to share data.

Yeah, ants are so organized that they are in effect slaves to the system and are so simple that they have no independent thought, just the collective... We are Draugnar of USA. Resistance is futile. You will be taxed to death. No thanks...

@Draug: i don't think you meant to imply Brittish people are ants, but ignoring that comment. (ants have a different social system and it works for them, i think it is stupid of you to consider one 'better' than the other; they are different, like comparing apples and oranges, you may prefer one, but both are fruit - you may prefer being free to do as you please but they are both social systems)

If we had to sit down today and setup a society i'm not sure if i'd like any americans (or those Irish people who share this very American view) at my table; but realistically we don't have to setup a new society today.

Still I do agree that hardship, pain, and suffering have their own inherent value. If things are easy and you are comfortable then you have less to motivate you.

If you live in a capitalist economy and you see your neighbours coming home with a great ox it is human nature to covet what you don't have. (though against christian morales) The system should allow an individual the opportunity to earn enough to buy these nice things.

However, in practice, many fall into poverty, either excessive debt, family raising costs/medical bills... not counting those who are stupid enough to become addicted to drugs (alcohol and tabacoo included) - those people become disillusioned with the system - the so-called American dream - and believe what they have evidence of rather than what you think is true - This results in a sub-optimal system - and Communism should never have this problem though it faces many varied other issues which you, Darugnar, are no doubt capable of listing.

@ Draugnar: "Tell that to the politicians and PACs and other political/legal organizations who insist government agencies aren't allowed to share data."

I wish I could tell them that! Clearly if they are not sharing data between themselves, it will be hard for them to have an organised, joined-up approach.

@Jamie: worse than that, in Ireland due to data protection issues, if the Department of health wants to issue a medical card (and it is only issued to the poor) they have to perform their own means test, an are not allowed use the information which the department of Revenue has (ie what taxes you have paid - they do their own means tests to work out how much you should pay in tax...)

that said, the department of social welfare is allowed as the department of education for proof that people claiming the dole are not in full-time education. (though it seems odd that you can be paid by the government to drop out of education)

So in effect ameans test performed by a seperate government deparment costs the medical card system more money (which was assigned to be spent on medical costs) by a group of people who are trained to do medical/social work.

@ orathaic: You're not being paid to drop out of education, you're being paid to look for work.

@ orthaic: "So in effect ameans test performed by a seperate government deparment costs the medical card system more money...."

Yes. Obviously that is stupid. They should integrate their data management so that this is not necessary.

"You're not being paid to drop out of education, you're being paid to look for work."

isn't that a matter of prespective? (like my suggestion that american dream is an illusion if you're stuck in poverty) At least they now call the dole 'job seekers benefit' - i'm a fan of naming things accurately.

Sorry if my ant comment struck anybit of an offensive chord. I was actually referring to nts, drones that go around and serve the queen, not human beings. Last I checked, the countries that make up Great Britain all have a certain level of freedom for their individuals. You chose what job you wish to do, where you want to live, what car you want to buy, what you wear, etc., etc. So, no, that wasn't directed at your nation or any other I know of in any way, shape, or form.

No worries Draugnar, no offence was taken.

@ orathaic: "isn't that a matter of prespective?"

Well, my perspective goes like this: You are dropping out of education in order to enter the workforce. You then need to look for a job. While you are doing that, you have no income, so the state provides a very basic allowance to help you feed and clothe yourself while you seek work.

It seems fair enough to me.

(I speak as someone who has claimed Job Seeker's Allowance in the UK twice during the last ten years - although on neither occasion did I drop out of a course of education to do so)

I hate global society. Nobody cares for one another anymore. How many of you know your next door neighbors? down the block? two streets over?
In real community, the disscussion of welfare is unessessary, everybody helps everybody, because thats just what you do, your neighbors, part of a community, and everyone looks out for eachother.

I was either born a few thousand years too late, or a few hundred too early. sigh.

your nextdoor neighbours are part of urbanised society.

You don't know them possibly because they moved from another part of the world, then sure it is an effect of globalised society, but that doesn't mean you can't get to know them. invite them around for tea... get involved on a community level on local projects.

I only work with the Scouts, but that is a youth community group. There are certainly less adult community groups in my area, apart from the local sports teams i can't think of one.

@ Sicarus: I share your pain.

In all honesty I can say that I know my neighbours on both sides (I live in a terraced street) by name, and we speak to them both regularly, exchange cards and (small) gifts on birthdays and at Xmas, and generally look out for each other. We know the people two doors along in both directions too, although one of those keeps himself very much to himself. We know 2-3 other families in our terrace, and 2-3 of the families in the neighbouring street. However I think we are an exeption in this regard and that a lot of people hardly even know their neighbours, which is very, very sad.

@Jamie: but it is possible to use job seekers allowance as a means of survival and not look for work. (or much better, it is possible to use job seekers allowance as a means of survival and do voluntary community work, because during a recession there is little paid employment to seek)

I know my neighbors on both sides. In fact I know the entire cul-de-sac I live in and all the people behind us on the enighboring street. I know them well enough (and they know each other) that when one of our neighbors got drunk and killed himself on the way home from the casino last January, we were all there to help hius widow and daughter and continue to help her today. That's just what good neighbors do.

knowing your neighbours and getting invovled in your community (setting up community based groups - whether they are book clubs, homework groups - to help local kids who perform poorly in school - or whatever... urbanized society has gotten harder since a globalized world has allowed foreigners be your neighbours. And since most government policy seems to ignore this part of our social system (though i'm glad the government stays out in one way, maybe some encouragement is needed)

@orathaic: "@Jamie: but it is possible to use job seekers allowance as a means of survival and not look for work. "

Not in my experience. Firstly, it does not pay you enough to live on (the basic is just over £40.00 per week), so it only forms a stop-gap. Secondly, you need to go along to the Job Centre every week and prove to them that you are looking for work. In my experience they were quite strict to me - they expected me to list every job I had applied for in the past week (of which I was expected to have applied for at least five) and provide proof of contact with employers such as letters confirming job interviews etc. After a given amount of time they will also arrange interviews for you (generally for low-paying or temporary jobs) and your payments will be stopped if you fail to attend these.

Maybe it is different in Ireland.

@orathaic - our local libraries, park and recreation district, and more are starting to build community groups. Especially our libraries which have the traditional book clubs but are also offering boardgaming nights now along with music nights (imagine that, music in a library...) The parks around here are doing concert and movie nights and encouraging group picnics before and/or during the events to get families to come together and form a sense of community. But that could be unique to the region I live in...

@Jamie - Sounds a lot like the US unemployment system. Must provide references of who you contacted and have a certain minimum number. Also, some of these must be for positions for which you are qualified (others may be "cold calls" to companies you'd like to work for) and, while they won't require you to go on their interviews (unemployment is for a limited time period), they offer employment search assistance, but that is usually for jobs below your skill level that pay just enough to get you off unemployment.

I would be happy to see a Job-Seeker's Allowance system where you were actually paid a little more (because seriously guys, you cannot live on £40 a week) but they were stricter about making you look for work.

in Ireland you get over €200 per week, (mor eif you've contributed to the social insurance scheme, which is mandatory for all employees - not self-employed people i think) and you have to go through some proof that you are looking for work, but i've always found work withinhte time frame (two-three week window) before they require proof...

and you don't have to go to the job centre every week...
but also since the recession they don't expect you to actually find work. They dod require you to attend an employment and training service which the government provides seperately... (fás - meaning growth in Irish)