But TGM is justifying the war in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

Proportionally speaking, it is as if a dog bit your leg, and you amputated its owner's legs while trying to kill the dog.

I don't have a problem with that, if that was the best way of protecting yourself from the dog. The chances are it isn't though, which makes it a bad analogy.

"Proportional Response" is all well and good, but not when the "proportionate response" is risking your own safety, or the safety of your military personnel.

The Taliban were terrorists themselves, and were actively sheltering Bin Laden. We wouldn't have invaded Afghanistan if the Taliban had simply given Bin Laden up, but since they refused to do so the US invaded to destroy al Quaedadedaeaada and the Taliban along with it. The Taliban made themselves enemies of the US by harboring Bin Laden, and it makes no sense to go easy on yor enemies in war.

After all, do you go easy on a player in Diplomacy when you have the edge?

RE: the Taliban 'sheltering' bin Laden: It's not like bin Laden was staying in the guest room at Mullah Omar's palace. OBL had essentially been granted a fief by the Taliban, and he was living in it with several thousand veterans of the war against the Soviets who were substantially better armed, trained, and equipped than the Taliban's rabble army. "Turning him over" would've been a very messy affair, taken weeks or months, and not a guaranteed success by any means (just as it obviously wasn't for the American military).

If you recall, even still the Taliban stated they were willing to turn OBL over to the US if Bush provided some evidence of his complicity in the attacks. Remember that the Afghan Arabs were not universally popular among the Taliban or the Afghans as a whole by any means, and I don't doubt that many Taliban leaders had no qualms about using bin Laden (and the price in blood and treasure for his capture or death) as a bargaining chip for their own necks. With their request for evidence, they were trying to save face and not look like a bunch of pussies (excuse my language) who just rolled over on command. Of course, our Cowboy President refused to consider anything except abject submission, and the rest was history - but it would've been interesting to see what would've happened to the Taliban's popularity and credibility if the US had provided clear evidence of guilt and the Taliban welched on their offer.

(although there are many who believe the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan would've gone ahead no matter what happened with bin Laden. I'm sure that thought had crossed the minds of many of the Taliban leaders of the time as well. One of the disadvantages of an opportunistic foreign policy is that no one trusts you, as we all know well...)

I say fuck the Taliban. And measured response my ass. They took civilians airliners filled with civilians, targetted a civilian facility (the WTC) and brought it down, killing thousands. I've heard it compared to Pearl Harbor, but that's bullshit. Pearl Harbor was a military base and the Japanese used their own military might to attack it. They Japanese had soem honor in their attack. AQ and OBN had none whatsoever. If the Taliban didn't want us attacking, they should have thrown everything they had at the base and offered to help us in. They knew what base he was at, and could easily have given us directions to every door and window in. But the fuckers opted to try and cover their asses by demanding proof. So I say fuck 'em all. May they all rot in hell.

Oh and as a proud MArine Is say "Mess with the best! Die like the rest! Arugh!!!!!"

Right on, Draugnar.

What's this about providing evidence, Tolstoy? Are you one of those Truther nuts?

@ Draugnar:

>I say fuck the Taliban. And measured response my ass. They took civilians airliners filled with civilians, targetted a civilian facility (the WTC) and brought it down, killing thousands.

You're confusing the Taliban with Al Qaeda again.

There's not much point in discussing things with people who don't care about the basic facts. Not that you have a well developed sense of morality anyway, so it probably wouldn't matter. I'm done here.

Draugnar, you got your way and after two bloody noses, a bankruptcy, and alienating everyone in the neighborhood, Osama bin Laden has been laughing at you for eight years now. Your strategy has killed a helluva lot of people - something you sound like you're very proud of - but it has utterly failed to accomplish your objective. Bombing or threatening to bomb everyone in sight - whether or not they had anything to do with the attack - obviously proved entirely ineffective. All I'm suggesting is that using one opponent to attack another is a good tactic in real life, not just in online games - but this was not seriously attempted. If it had been, things might've turned out differently and you may've even been happier (unfortunately, we will never know).

@Invictus, I don't consider myself a 'Truther'. I don't doubt that 19 Arab men hijacked four airliners and crashed them into buildings, killing thousands. But beyond that - who conceived, planned, organized, recruited, and most importantly paid for the attacks - I think the truth is unknowable for those of us who don't have the super duper ultra top secret security clearance. And even those people might not have it right. All the rest of us have are our beliefs, which are formed from our prejudices and preconceptions and information spoon fed to us from a variety of sources, all of whom have ulterior motives that could influence their presentation in an attempt to shape our beliefs. Even that supposedly independent 9/11 commission that was supposed to get to the bottom of everything and had the temerity to force Condi Rice to testify under oath dodged all of the important questions - even several of the commissioners have come out recently and said their report is essentially worthless.

OBL may've been behind the attacks. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe it was the Israelis (who certainly had the most to gain from the attacks). Maybe it was George Bush himself (although I view this scenario as highly unlikely). Maybe it was Satan, reptilian aliens, or time travelers. I will never know with certainty; too many people have too much to gain by pushing one theory or another - let alone all the deliberate disinformation put out there - for a clear picture to ever emerge. I consider this true for most important historical events that involve covert activity (like political assassinations, airline bombings, etc).

@Toby - no I'm not. Read on. I clarified that the "Fuck the Taliban" was for their hiding the mother fucking bastard. I know Al Quida pulled the job, but the fucking Taliban deserves everythign they get for not being completely open and hinest with where he was. Fuck The Taliban! Marine Corps! Arugh!!!!!

@Tolstoy - Bush and his cronies fucked up the Afghanistan conflict by pulling troops out to deal with Iraq. We should have gotten the job done and let Iraq be. Instead, we pulled out troops to go fight a non-war that was none of our business. If the forces in Iraq had all been in Afghanistan, we not only would have found him (like we did Saddam) but he would have had his day of hanging and quartering, if he was found alive. So, your right, we'll never know what would have happened, but not because my idea was followed, instead because there was no follow through.

Tolstoy, that's the definition of a many Truthers, and they're all paranoid idiots.

You have an over-nuanced distinction between the Taliban and Al Quauadedueedaaaa. While the Taliban themselves weren't behind 9/11, but they did support and actively harbor the men who did. By not giving them up they became enemies of the US, and as a response to the attacks we invaded. Saying that there's any practical difference between the Taliban and Bin Laden's cronies is really just an academic distinction. Both are our real enemies and we were totally justified in our actions against them.

@Draugnar, OBL's trail was 'lost' in late 2001 or early 2002, well before Iraq started to ramp up. The whole 'Iraq distraction' canard was cooked up by the pro-war leftists for the 2004 election, who are in favor of wars that have strong public approval levels. Afghanistan is a big country with difficult terrain. It's nearly impossible to find someone who doesn't want to be found unless you know the ground better than they do. bin Laden was lost to the hubris and arrogance of people who felt they were invincible and didn't need help from anyone anywhere for anything. They were wrong.

Invictus, The United States of America is harboring Luis Posada Carriles, a terrorist who has bombed a civilian airliner and murdered entirely innocent tourists in an effort to bring down the Cuban government. He is being harbored right here in the good 'ol US of A, being protected from extradition to Cuba and Venezuela. His crimes differ from those attributed to Osama bin Laden only by method and body count. By your logic, Cuba and Venezuela are entirely justified in invading the United States, capturing President Obama and lynching him, killing millions of American taxpayers, and replacing our traffic laws with the Cuban Codigo del Vehiculos .

As for the "Truther" charge, if your definition is 'anyone who doesn't buy the official line hook, line, and sinker', I guess you're right - I'm a truther and a "paranoid idiot".