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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.

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FloatingLakes (5034

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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Big Points Game, Join 1 spot

Only need one more, game starts in 1 hour. 24hr/move, big pot.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11967

0 replies

(B)

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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To pause, or not to pause...

That was the question.

Maniac (189 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

A bit of background....

ThomasB had been playing in our league, I understand that he had some problems signing on and registering in time for our forth game so the game started without him and with Civil Disorder Italy in his stead.

Before anyone had moved and in plenty of time, ThomasB requested that the game be drawn and restarted so that he would have a fair chance of being allocated another country. The other players discussed this at some length and between them decided not to draw the game.

Some players wanted to pause but I did not. Our other games had been disjointed by lengthy pauses, and I just wanted to get on with it.

The first moves are then made by the other 6 players. One of the players, Dingleberry Jones who is playing Turkey asks the Ghostmaker to pause the game (and the other league games); force ThomasB into CD, and get a sub.

The Ghostmaker paused the games. They are still paused.

I queried why the game was paused when I didn’t vote for a pause, and was told by the Ghostmaker that it was paused by him in accordance with the rules.

I asked for a copy of the rules.

My interpretation of the rules did not coincide with The Ghostmaker’s interpretation, and I advised him of this. His response was, “Well, I'm not really interested in the letter of the rules but the reason for having them.” A full account of our exchanges can be found on this forum, entitled Ghostie, we need a sub.

Now, please don’t get me wrong, I have played so terribly in the other league games that I need a miracle to advance up the leagues, and I will just be happy to resume playing…..playing not pausing is what I come on this site for.

However, should the rulemaker decide such matters? I am not suggesting for one moment that The Ghostmaker has sided with DingleberryJones, or that Dingleberry Jones requested a pause because he knew that having Italy out of CD would cause problems for Austria and that could assist Turkey. I would never suggest such things, without knowing the people involved better.

However, by giving the Rulemaker the power to pause games when the rules clearly did not call for it to be paused, puts the Rulemaker in a position whereby he can be manipulated and his rulings could then have a direct bearing on the outcome of the game.

Just for the record, I am NOT accusing anybody of anything, I think ThomasB, The Ghostmaker and DingleberryJones are all beyond reproach. Where I have played with them, I have always thought they play the game how it should be played.

I just wanted to vent a little, and ask, Should these games have been paused?

djbent (2572 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

since he's the rulemaker, leagues organizer, and all around swell guy, i'm afraid the answer is:

yes, maniac, there is a ghostmaker. and he gets to call the shots in the league.

but you've got plenty of points, why not join a new game? i know all my league games are paused for a week, as are two others for other reasons, so i'm going to join a quick game in the meantime so entertain while the others are paused. maybe that's a good solution for you too?

Maniac (189 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

I've just joined "Thanks for all the fish" Join me won't you?

djbent (2572 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

haha i'm hoping to finish up something i'm working on and leave the computer aside for the rest of the weekend, otherwise i would. plus i'm not a huge fan of PPSC games. still, i plan to start a new game on monday, probably slightly lower pot (like maybe 50?), and WTA. maybe you'll still be looking for one then?

figlesquidge (2131 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

I have to say, I agree with your logic, but I think if you join Ghost's league system you play by his rules. I would love to see a FOTA vrs FIA thing evolve out of this though!

TheGhostmaker (1545 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

Maniac, I have already explained why I paused the games. Given that you didn't even know what the rules were, and agreed to them, apparently not having read them, I cannot say your position is a particularly strong one.

That aside, your understanding of how the rules are meant to work is faulty. We have had one person writing the rules, so I cannot be expected to specifically cover, or even think of, every situation. The rules that I have written are there as as good an expression of my wishes of how the leagues are to be played, and so my intention is always to do what seems right, rather than to pour over the rulebook to see if I foresaw this particular circumstance and stated a course of action to be taken. Certainly early on the rules simply cannot be that specific- I am doing this in my free time, which also includes Ghost-rating work, more recently, moderator work, things beside diplomacy, and lets not forget actually playing the game. If you want to fund me having a lawyer to write the rules, and not being able to do any summer work myself, I could right exhaustive rules, but when it is just a hobby, I have enough work with the leagues already.

As for the specific decision, the spirit of the rules I had was that I wanted to promote good diplomacy in the leagues and I wanted to make it fair on people who have some other commitments, who are joining leagues late and so on. I wouldn't want to see them more disadvantaged them, so that only people who play from the start solidly through to the finish have a good chance. Pausing a game for a few days to give an incoming player a decent chance I view as a valid decision.

Captain Dave (113 )
03 Jul 09 UTC

Figle, please don't put that thought into anyone's head... and besides, that was 'resolved'!

I have to admit that the only reason a sub should have been called upon was Thomas's position in the other games - his withdrawal led to a 3-way draw in Game One, which I was a part of despite essentially having no right to be a part of it. In addition, a CD for him in Game Two would have led to a massive change in the game dynamics. Granted, a new player will change the dynamics anyway, but nonetheless it means his nation has the same chances it had before - who knows what way he would have tried to make things work?

I also don't feel that games are disjointed by pauses: this is the internet, and, unless anyone is dying, we've got an awfully large amount of time in which to play the game, the server is not going to disappear overnight. There is no game 'dynamic' like in, e.g. (as it's that time of year) a tennis match that gets postponed part way through due to the weather or darkness. The only thing we have is the written word, which does not get altered, and the ability to change our own intentions. For me, real life takes precedence over a non-time-limited game, and, as such, the pause was the right way to go.

Maniac (189 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

@TGM, Thanks again for explaining you decission. I am happy to accept it 100%, I have unpaused the games and am ready to play.

My critism, is not of directed at you st all. I think you have done a fine job, and I think you should be commended for giving up your own time for us all.

However, I generally belive that you could make life easier for yourself and maybe create fewer disagreements between the players if you allowed the game mechanics to function in the same way as the rest of the site does. This takes away the need for any inteventions which could lead to arguements between players. I know that would be an imperfect solution, but your intervention at the beheast of another player (who may have a vested interest) could also lead to imperfect solutions.

I take your point about me not knowing the rules before I signed up to join.

DingleberryJones (4469 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

"generally belive that you could make life easier for yourself and maybe create fewer disagreements between the players if you allowed the game mechanics to function in the same way as the rest of the site does."

Maniac, if this were a non-league game, the site would let a sub join at any time. So by getting a sub, he IS allowing our league games to function as any other game would.

As I said in the thread that Draugnar started regarding the exact same subject, why would any credible Diplomacy player want to play a game with 6 players, instead of 7, regardless of the reasons why it occurred. I don't think it was so you would have an advantage (you were England and Italy was in CD), so I'm not quite sure why you are being such a stickler about rules. In absence of all the pauses, I don't think you'd be complaining about this.

Lets face it, the problem wasn't with TGM or the rules, but the fact that players joined this league knowing full well they wouldn't have the time to devote to it. Constant pauses have gotten under everyone's skin. And having one player miss a turn and expect a game to draw because of it was just silly.

DingleberryJones (4469 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

":I know that would be an imperfect solution, but your intervention at the beheast of another player (who may have a vested interest) could also lead to imperfect solutions."

And incidentally, in response to this sideways accusations, I was more concerned about the other games than this one. Thomas had already missed the beginning of this game and CD'd in a 2nd game; should all 4 games be ruined because of this, or should we get a sub?

TheGhostmaker (1545 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

DJ is right to point out the problem is with people who leave the leagues mid-season. The four leagues that consist of players who have already played a season, the Premier League, League A, League B1 and League B2 have not suffered a single mid-season drop out. Next season, therefore, I expect the C-level leagues to be much like the higher leagues are now, and the D-level rather like the C level now, and finally the season after, all the levels down to D to be pretty smooth in terms of players' not dropping out.

gjdip (1065 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

Unless they do into administration.

gjdip (1065 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

do == go.

TheGhostmaker (1545 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

As in, the leagues reduce in size to such an extent that new players have to fill C-level leagues? That would require over 28 people leaving, which seems to me unlikely.

Maniac (189 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

@DJ - I didn't mean to make any accusation at all, I think you know me well enough to know, If I had something to say, I would say it. :)

I agree that outside of the league a player may have taken up the CD traly. I have no problem with another player joining us. I only had a problem with the game being poaused to allow that to happen, and now the game being paused becuase players are upset, and now players want the pause to continue over Independence day, and I understand it is the pope's cat's birthday on Wednesday so I expect yet another pause (/end sarcasm.)

I think when this settles down, TGM and others may decide it is easier to let the games flow, I think we have argued more about this pause than anything else we have done 'in game'.

DingleberryJones (4469 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

Maniac, the problem is the games HAVE to be paused to get a sub. Because they are private games with passwords, unless you want to post on the forum with the password, then you need to allow TGM to get a sub.

gjdip (1065 )
04 Jul 09 UTC

Maybe we can create a spin-off site: Bureaucracy. You win by getting all the right papers and get the other players to waste their time by filling out irrelevant forms.

17 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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could you support hold ...

Could you support the hold of a unit supporting hold of unit in question?

9 replies

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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iPhone or Blackberry

My family's cell phone contract expires on the 4th and we're deciding whtether to switch to AT&T and buy an iPhone or two or to just stay with Verizon and all get blackberry's. in ya'alls experience which is better? oh, and I have a Mac so I can't do Windows phones or anything like that.

9 replies

TheGhostmaker (1545

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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Leagues Information/Notice

The following leagues all need to start game 4, get a new play or similar:

13 replies

mellvins059 (199

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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25th person to post wins but you can only post once

1

37 replies

Sayjo the Lion-Hearted (1096

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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Blog discourse

I'm trying to formulate a community blog revolving around very effective discourse. I'm asking for any ideas to incorporate to help with our success.

Main idea I'm playing with is a voting system to direct the conversations in a natural flow that the majority wants it to take.

13 replies

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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Do You Dare?

New game: 50entry ppsc
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11958
rlumley, akroma, amonkeyperson, DrOct, invictus, onar, xapi you are all invited
do you dare to have your asses kicked?

167 replies

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04 Jul 09 UTC

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Happy Independence Day!!!!!!

O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?

17 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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Dear Mr. and Ms. Diplomacy,

I officially announce my retirement from all Live games.

18 replies

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04 Jul 09 UTC

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New Game Starting Soon

Fast game, anyone welcome.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11971

0 replies

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04 Jul 09 UTC

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phpDiplo. on Facebook

This could help in live games as an alternative...since on Facebook there is another phpDiplo. with 100D. to offer!)

0 replies

DefyingGravity (100

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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New game

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11971

2 replies

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04 Jul 09 UTC

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Un to the pause please

http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11336

This game was paused due to a player who had already been defeated being banned. Since then, Kolobok has refused to unpause, despite having logged in a number of times, speculatively, because he is angry I stabbed him. Please unpause.

1 reply

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04 Jul 09 UTC

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Happy Fourth of July!

Fireworks, hot dogs, parades, fireworks, flags, bands, parties, fireworks, baseball, barbecues, fireworks...

Independence forever!

2 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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!!! the 'Apocalypse' Variant !!!

* The 'Apocalypse' variant of the Diplomacy game *
* New unit: the fighter plane.(P)
- Moves up to four provinces per turn. .......

2 replies

DefyingGravity (100

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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New here, join my game and help me out ?

Hey all, I'm new here, join my game and help me out please ?

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11971

0 replies

Neuro_Violation (100

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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Rules question.

See inside...

3 replies

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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the forum freak

rlumley: stop starting new threads
stop responding to old ones
you forum freak...

26 replies

(G)

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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Need Temp Sitter for Great Game

Anyone interested in a game with a moderately large pot, you can take over for me temporarily?

2 replies

bishopofRome (0

)
04 Jul 09 UTC

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if your austria in a gunboat game you are totaly screwed

(Unless your beastly)
But in gunboat unless you know what the other person is going to do you cant form allainces and being surround by four countries is not good, anybody agree?

7 replies

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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Plz Mods. Pause

A friend of us is left for the weekend. can you pause the game?
We all agreed to pause, but since he hasnt logged back he hasnt posted his vote. Thx foe the time

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11457

4 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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NEW LIVE GAME. JOIN AND STAY (GODDAMN IT)

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11960

17 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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!! FRIDAY ** now ** LIVE GAME !!

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11966

2 replies

Jamiet99uk (873

)
03 Jul 09 UTC

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Have you ever won a game...

... and had none of your home SC's left at the time?

6 replies

TheMasterGamer (3491

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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What is the best way to reach Kestas?

Trying to reach Kestas.

17 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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Nwe game: And Thanks for All the Fish

125 point bet, 24-hour phases, PPSC

2 replies

smokybarnable (1141

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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CD question.

I'm in a game where two of as are about the break the current leader. The game naturally would go to a battle between the two of us allies for the win. The current leader is now going to leave for an extended holiday after the current build phase, and voted for a draw. When will he FIRST be in CD if he does?

17 replies

Jamiet99uk (873

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02 Jul 09 UTC

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Something that annoys me.

On the subject of annoying behaviour...

44 replies

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03 Jul 09 UTC

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SHOW YOUR INDEPENDENCE SPIRIT ON JULY 4TH!

You want freedom? Join this game! Don't let those colonists die for nothing!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11960

1 reply

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