"DD, as the consummate Diplomacy player, why are you counting votes? Why not try to satisfy everyone? Why are you not trying to figure out what is most to your advantage?"

LOL. First, I never claimed to be a consummate Diplomacy player. Second, satisfying everyone else is impossible. I know, cause I'm married. With kids.

But why are you trying to take a tally of votes and if you win, you play on as you have and if you lose you presumably make changes? Has anyone made a point that perhaps might make you adjust your game, regardless of vote tally?

DJ "so I'm not sure what your point is."

I'm not arguing with you. My point is that there is no community consensus on honoring personal blacklists, or on suiciding out, as you have helped prove. Thank you for your assistance.

But the diplomatic thing would be to pretend that you can.

Ah... I wasn't speaking of either of those things, I was discussing your numerous black-listings, not whether to honor them, but why you are on them...

"not whether to honor them, but why you are on them..."

Maybe I'm just not willing to be a grand metagamer...wanting to keep harmony for future games but, instead, am playing each game independently to the fullest, and damn the consequences.

lolol

Well, that answers my question. There is nothing you can learn from this thread apparently.

You're all metagamers. Blacklisters merely put themselves at a disadvantage, and DipperDon, in another thread you admitted you were likely to ally with someone who had blacklisted you simply so that there wasn't any long standing grudge. I wouldn't call that playing each game independently.

DJ, what has been presented that you think is new to me? The point of the thread was to establish that there are no social norms for behavior on honoring blacklisting and suiciding out. That's it. The question about "Is it just me..." was included solely to encourage people to respond. I *know* my playing style is more polarizing than others. But aren't you the one who some time back in another thread about another person said in effect..."if they have the points, then their style must be working"?

Chrispy, you're so right it's scary!

Whats been presented is that you seem to be the only one getting these requests en masse. If you didn't care what people thought, why start this thread in the first place? Why care about 'social norms' if its irrelevant what people think?

DJ, the purpose of the thread was to prove Babak wrong. After he blacklisted me (for the second time) for suiciding out after his stab, he said "anyone will tell you that 'suiciding out' is poor form" and claimed that our community's "social norm" was absolutely against that behavior. I challenged him to bring it up in the forum for discussion because I thought he would be proven wrong. He refused. So, I did it myself.

In his mind, Babak is the final judge of how the game should be played, and he doesn't want to be told that he's not. So, this thread was to prove that he's flat wrong, and that what he's really doing is blacklisting me for no other reason than that he, himself, doesn't like the way I played the game against him...again.

Also, I've just got too much free time on my hands today, stuck at a desk with a computer and not much else to do.

Done. If you want the thread to die now, that's fine too.

Ah, I misinterpreted the purpose of this thread. I didn't realize it was a 'Get Babak' thread. My apologies. My thought was that it was an earnest desire on your part to find out why you get blacklisted. Again, my apologies for sullying up your 'get Babak' thread.

But I guess it just irks me to have a relative noob telling me that I'm playing the game all wrong... over and over... like he's got the inside track to the ultimate truths of Diplomacy.

wow this conversation has a life of its own it seems... I have a lot i'd like to say but not too much time... however a few quick observations and points because they merit mentioning.

1) DD your description of our various interactions are so blatantly wrong that I don't even think I should waste time countering each one... and now that I see DbJ, Centurian, Darwyn, and others have had similar reactions to both your actions and your post-mortem statements about your interactions with them, I feel rather justified in my opinion of you and your action.

2. on the issue of suiciding - its a fine tactic... not a problem, it IS childish and boorish, but its a legit tactic people use... specially if they want to build a 'rep' in a community - so is this idea of 'I stick to my alliances'... or 'if you stab me in this game, i'll never ally with you again'... these are all childish tactics people use (not saying you) and one has to live with them... but they are also bordering on meta-gaming and society (or in this case phpdip community) can frown upon them and say 'bad boy! thats not the right way to do things'... b/c society is interested in harmonious interactions and overall/aggregate better play (its called sportsmanship in other contexts). that's not YOUR goal - so fine... but then you should also be fine with being somewhat ostracized... diplomat is an extreme example of this behavior (mostly forum though i've never played with him in a game)

3. in the situation you describe - i never said "I'll never play with you again"... what I did was in a private fashion I asked you 'please do not join any games I create in the future'... another words - lets agree to disagree and just not debate since we wont get anywhere... you decided to publicize our discord - which again, is your choice

4. in the game you wrongly describe - you did not just suicide... you were/are a 6-center Russia in 1904 where the largest power is 8... you have a very legitimate and playable position. you even did a great job of finding an ally who was previously my ally to work against me together... which is a testament to great strategy and diplomacy... what I took umbridge with was that you decided to hold with 4 units and only use the 2 that were attacking me... in fact, had you used the other 4, you could have put yourself even in a better position... I asked you in the game why you held and even pointed out it did not help you... your response is what got me riled up ... you said basically 'who cares, i'm losing anyways, i'm gonna let others pick up dots instead of you'... THAT is what ticked me off on top of the myriad other things we have had our disagreements about.

5. to put my personal finishing touch on this thread and conversation (one can hope) here are my main points

A. I would prefer not to be in games with DD b/c I consider him in his own words, 'a consumate metagamer' among other things. I have asked him in private and now in public that he should please not join games I create. I've told him and say here, he can join if he feels like it - he is under no obligation to 'honor' my request... and I have even said to him i would try to treat him no different than any other random player... (albeit with far less trust)

B. My main point to DD that he's been trying to refute is that there IS such a thing as 'social norms'... and that there is such a thing as a 'social norm of phpdip' and it should be improved over time as this is a very young community of dippers. One of the items on that list of social norms 'should be' and in other dip communities already 'is' that suiciding out of spite is not good dip behavior... no one ever claimed it was illegal... just that its poor sportsmanship


c'est tous maitnon

And I'm going to copy and paste my response to another one of your 'Get Babak' posts in another thread... so other observers can best judge my reaction to you. I wish I had more time to respond to a few more of your new points above - but that will have to wait... for now.. here's my other post/response to you:



and finally... (this is going to be long...)

@ DipperDon - I am not the 'decider'... but I do have a very strong opinion that i've tried to defend on this forum... that WTA is a 'superior' and 'right' way to play the game of Diplomacy as compared to 'ppsc' (the BEST way is FTF)... I stand by that claim. I have also conceded (on many occasions) that I am unlikely to change the mindset of this entire site nor will I succeed in getting Kestas to change his code and get rid of PPSC. BUT I do think by continuing to reiterate what I feel is "right" I will help make the players here better Dip players and this a 'better' Dip community. you seem to have some personal issues with me, but I'll do my best to ignore your emotive utterances and address your substantive ones...


1) my quote ("in WTA games, the #1 priority is actually not to win... its to NOT lose.") - which you referenced incompletely since it also included "(at least in game-theory terms)" was particularly related to the scenario that cteno outlined in the original comment regarding 'minor' powers.

Though I do think in rational and logical terms, 'not losing' includes 'winning' but is broad enough to include 'draws'. another words my statement is true and completely consistent... one's goal in a WTA (even in this point system) is to 'not lose' first and foremost, and if possible 'win' or solo... so yes, a Draw is a GOOD outcome whereas a solo is a rare but GREAT outcome.


2) your first charge: "first you complained that I didn't play ppsc games right be offering gamelong alliances"

- actually if you were being intellectually honest you'd say that I said you were not playing "Diplomacy" 'right' irrelevant of ppsc... which is to say, I do think anyone who plays this game and expects (or even genuinely offers) game-long alliances, has a warped understanding of what the game is supposed to be.

BUT - after our semi-public rift on that point... I did, on this forum, state that it was DUE to the PPSC 'variant' that such a mindset was taking hold... and that the ppsc model created a mutated reward structure whereby doing so (expecting and offering game-long-alliances) was normal and rational. So our disagreement in that game was the catalyst that made me realize and recognize the 'evil' that the ppsc model is inflicting on this great game and great hobby. in fact, since that game, I have not played a single ppsc game and have joined or created wta games only. so I do owe you a thanks for enlightening me through your ill-advised game-play.


3) your second charge: "Then you claimed that all ppsc games are a crappy variants not worth spitting on, because there people didn't really go for the win"

- exactly right on my view on ppsc (maybe my language would be stronger) - but only partially right on the reasoning. My main contention continues to be that its because people dont go for the 'draw' instead of the 'survive'. the reason WTA is superior is because inherent in its reward structure is its promotion of the 'draw' as FAR superior to the 'survive' (b/c a 'survive' = 'elimination' in wta)



4) DD's third charge: "But noooowww, you claim that the real goal of wta isn't to win, but to avoid losing?!?"

- I'm sorry to have confused you - I do confess that for some people logic is a bit more difficult to follow. But in point (1) above I laid out in more excruciating detail my reasoning. hopefully you were able to follow it. Also note that I never said the "real goal" - I said the "#1 priority" (In this case, semantics matter quite a bit)... so once more, a bit of intellectual honesty would have made you realized that your statement here was baseless.



5) more from DD: "I honestly think you don't really have a clue what you really think,... argue and complain when people don't play the way that makes you happy... "

- besides the rhetorical flourish of this sentence, which I give full credit to, there is little substance here. I guess I should point out that I do indeed have a 'clue', and though I enjoy 'arguing' (or debating/discussing) its not simply to 'complain' its to 'improve' what I see as some problems in the game culture on this site.



6) and your closing argument: "... you claim that anyone and everyone knows that suiciding out against someone who stabs me is very poor form and ruins Diplomacy. I'm still laughing my ass off about that one. Do you really think that the entire Dip community agrees with you on that?"

- I'm particularly tickled that i've provided you with such entertainment that even your kiester is laughing... but indeed... I do think that 'suiciding out' is indeed 'poor form' and being a 'bad sport'... instead of playing the game out which is 'good form' you simply held with 4 units and moved 2 (mind you - I said this to you despite the fact that your holds greatly helped me)...

first of all, anyone worth their salt will tell you that having 6 units with R in 1904 is nothing to be churlish about when F leads with 8, E has 7, T has 7, and I has 5 (not to mention no clear alliances). what you SHOULD do is to play it out... try to make new alliances, and defend your other borders... play like a man instead of like a temper-tantrum-ridden 5 year old who doesn't get his favorite flavor of ice-cream.

On this last point - Yes, there are things called 'social norms'. For example, a social norm in the Dip community is that when you are losing, you should not just drop out of the game... that is 'bad form' and it makes the game less enjoyable for the 6 others you committed to play with... now I fully understand that on this rather new community with so many new players, this is not yet a 'standard' and its not yet a normalized 'social norm'... but it is an ideal to be tried for... it is a goal to be achieved... it is something that is 'right'.

For a 40-something 17-year-veteran of the game (as you claimed to me previously) you certainly are not acting nor behaving the part.

As I said in my in-game message to you - it is your choice to hold 4 units and move 2... it is your choice to give up in A1904 w/ 6 dots in a WTA game... it is also your choice to stomp your feet and pout - but dont then be offended that someone calls you out for being childish, churlish, and quite annoying.



now my turn to complain about you... after our first dust-up, I though you made it quite clear that you did not want to play with me and that you did not believe in WTA games. I then went on to create a WTA game a few weeks back and you promptly joined it... fine. but then I created a 2nd game and very specifically asked that 'people i'm playing in other games with' do not join... (which was directed at YOU)... yet again, you promptly joined THAT WTA game as well.

so what gives? do you enjoy stalking me now? does it pleasure you to join games I start to then 'suicide' me just to prove a point and to ruin my experience on this site? Can you please do me a favor and steer clear of my games in the future since I do NOT enjoy playing with you and I do not consider you a serious player nor even a considerate human being. We can continue our disagreements and conversations here on the forum and I will engage you as respectfully as I know how... but I ask that you stay out of my games... can you promise me that?

Again, Babak, you bring your habit of lies and distortions into the forum. Can you not tell the truth, even here?

1) You wrote: "you said basically 'who cares, i'm losing anyways, i'm gonna let others pick up dots instead of you'... THAT is what ticked me off on top of the myriad other things we have had our disagreements about."

Here what I followed up with "If you're going to be my downfall, and not move out of Sev, I'm going to make sure you don't profit from my fall but that others do. Respect or don't respect what you like. Doesn't really matter to me. However, if you want to pull out of Sev, I'd be willing to defend in the north."

But you didn't want to include that, because it shows the threat was a negotiating tool. I was clearly trying to stay in the game by attempting to get you to pull out of Sev.

2. Now you say that suiciding out is a "fine tactic...not a problem". But in your private messages to me you said "but I promise you - you go ask that question at a Dip tournament and 90% of the people will tell you its 'bad form'." And you accompanied this with numerous personal insults saying that I was showing the "poorest sport" you'd ever seen. What horseshit, Babak. I'm just playing the game and using a legitimate tactic. Your problem is that you didn't have an effective way to deal with it.

3. You didn't just ask me to not join games you create. That's a lie. You wrote "I do hope I never play in a game with you in the future" That is a direct copy/paste.

4. You wrote above "One of the items on that list of social norms 'should be' and in other dip communities already 'is' that suiciding out of spite is not good dip behavior" Babak, virtually any kind of negotiating tactic is legal, legitimate, and ethical. People have probably been suiciding out since the game was invented. In postal play it was not uncommon and understood as part of what a stabber had to be prepared to deal with. I've seen in house play, I've seen it *during* dipcons and *nobody* stood up and said that it was poor sportsmanship. But along comes Babak, who thinks he's got the moral authority and understands the spirit of the game better than everyone else...so now the community should conform you your own personal views of how to play the game?

So, Babak, I'm sure we're both being childish. Everyone reading this will agree with that. But can you not tell the truth, even in this forum? And can you not admit that you really are not the all-knowing, last arbiter of how Diplomacy should be played? Do you really think you've been around long enough and talked to enough players to do that? Really?

Oh, and Babak, on joining games you created. I only remember one, and for that one I didn't read your forum post beforehand. Had I read it, I would have avoided your game, just as I am the one you've now created. Don't flatter yourself to think that I'll look for games with you. I just join games based on the pot/gametype/timeframe, etc. Unlike you, I don't really worry about whether I think I can beat the people playing, or whether I agree with their playing style.

I liked how Babak's started with:

"I have a lot i'd like to say but NOT TOO MUCH TIME... however a FEW QUICK observations and points because they merit MENTIONING"

and then all hell broke loose :)

LOL Ivo... I thought the same thing. I'm not sure Kestas's server would have held up if Babak had a lot of time.

I was told by one of the "WTA Forum Snobs" that he wouldn't play with me ever again because I kept an "unbreakable" alliance. He blamed my record as to the fact that I wouldn't stab, where after he was defeated I stabbed my ally. I think much of this is whining from the premium players when they can't get their way or break an alliance (or gather other players to defend against it).

Accusing someone of being an "Idiot Drawing Newb" isn't really a good tactic... especially if stabbing the ally will result in being the first one out of the game.

well DD - i think we've both said our piece... its obvious we both consider the other a serial fabricator at worst or liable to intentionally misintrepret the other... i've never claimed to be all-knowing despite your snide comments to that effect - and though i'm sure you are a fine enough individual in person and certainly an above-average skilled player, i do hope to avoid you on this platform as much as possible.

you made so many incorrect and blatently offensive assertions in your last post that i would love to rip to shreds including by copy/pasting your in-game remarks and giving context to mine... but i really dont find these forum flame-wars as appealing as you apparantly do so i'll refrain (besides i think i've made my points strongly enough).

Ha ha.

Join the club, DD.

It looks like I'm in the Leagues with one of them. Five games in a row together.

Priceless.

Just four games, maple.