and finally... (this is going to be long...)
@ DipperDon - I am not the 'decider'... but I do have a very strong opinion that i've tried to defend on this forum... that WTA is a 'superior' and 'right' way to play the game of Diplomacy as compared to 'ppsc' (the BEST way is FTF)... I stand by that claim. I have also conceded (on many occasions) that I am unlikely to change the mindset of this entire site nor will I succeed in getting Kestas to change his code and get rid of PPSC. BUT I do think by continuing to reiterate what I feel is "right" I will help make the players here better Dip players and this a 'better' Dip community. you seem to have some personal issues with me, but I'll do my best to ignore your emotive utterances and address your substantive ones...
1) my quote ("in WTA games, the #1 priority is actually not to win... its to NOT lose.") - which you referenced incompletely since it also included "(at least in game-theory terms)" was particularly related to the scenario that cteno outlined in the original comment regarding 'minor' powers.
Though I do think in rational and logical terms, 'not losing' includes 'winning' but is broad enough to include 'draws'. another words my statement is true and completely consistent... one's goal in a WTA (even in this point system) is to 'not lose' first and foremost, and if possible 'win' or solo... so yes, a Draw is a GOOD outcome whereas a solo is a rare but GREAT outcome.
2) your first charge: "first you complained that I didn't play ppsc games right be offering gamelong alliances"
- actually if you were being intellectually honest you'd say that I said you were not playing "Diplomacy" 'right' irrelevant of ppsc... which is to say, I do think anyone who plays this game and expects (or even genuinely offers) game-long alliances, has a warped understanding of what the game is supposed to be.
BUT - after our semi-public rift on that point... I did, on this forum, state that it was DUE to the PPSC 'variant' that such a mindset was taking hold... and that the ppsc model created a mutated reward structure whereby doing so (expecting and offering game-long-alliances) was normal and rational. So our disagreement in that game was the catalyst that made me realize and recognize the 'evil' that the ppsc model is inflicting on this great game and great hobby. in fact, since that game, I have not played a single ppsc game and have joined or created wta games only. so I do owe you a thanks for enlightening me through your ill-advised game-play.
3) your second charge: "Then you claimed that all ppsc games are a crappy variants not worth spitting on, because there people didn't really go for the win"
- exactly right on my view on ppsc (maybe my language would be stronger) - but only partially right on the reasoning. My main contention continues to be that its because people dont go for the 'draw' instead of the 'survive'. the reason WTA is superior is because inherent in its reward structure is its promotion of the 'draw' as FAR superior to the 'survive' (b/c a 'survive' = 'elimination' in wta)
4) DD's third charge: "But noooowww, you claim that the real goal of wta isn't to win, but to avoid losing?!?"
- I'm sorry to have confused you - I do confess that for some people logic is a bit more difficult to follow. But in point (1) above I laid out in more excruciating detail my reasoning. hopefully you were able to follow it. Also note that I never said the "real goal" - I said the "#1 priority" (In this case, semantics matter quite a bit)... so once more, a bit of intellectual honesty would have made you realized that your statement here was baseless.
5) more from DD: "I honestly think you don't really have a clue what you really think,... argue and complain when people don't play the way that makes you happy... "
- besides the rhetorical flourish of this sentence, which I give full credit to, there is little substance here. I guess I should point out that I do indeed have a 'clue', and though I enjoy 'arguing' (or debating/discussing) its not simply to 'complain' its to 'improve' what I see as some problems in the game culture on this site.
6) and your closing argument: "... you claim that anyone and everyone knows that suiciding out against someone who stabs me is very poor form and ruins Diplomacy. I'm still laughing my ass off about that one. Do you really think that the entire Dip community agrees with you on that?"
- I'm particularly tickled that i've provided you with such entertainment that even your kiester is laughing... but indeed... I do think that 'suiciding out' is indeed 'poor form' and being a 'bad sport'... instead of playing the game out which is 'good form' you simply held with 4 units and moved 2 (mind you - I said this to you despite the fact that your holds greatly helped me)...
first of all, anyone worth their salt will tell you that having 6 units with R in 1904 is nothing to be churlish about when F leads with 8, E has 7, T has 7, and I has 5 (not to mention no clear alliances). what you SHOULD do is to play it out... try to make new alliances, and defend your other borders... play like a man instead of like a temper-tantrum-ridden 5 year old who doesn't get his favorite flavor of ice-cream.
On this last point - Yes, there are things called 'social norms'. For example, a social norm in the Dip community is that when you are losing, you should not just drop out of the game... that is 'bad form' and it makes the game less enjoyable for the 6 others you committed to play with... now I fully understand that on this rather new community with so many new players, this is not yet a 'standard' and its not yet a normalized 'social norm'... but it is an ideal to be tried for... it is a goal to be achieved... it is something that is 'right'.
For a 40-something 17-year-veteran of the game (as you claimed to me previously) you certainly are not acting nor behaving the part.
As I said in my in-game message to you - it is your choice to hold 4 units and move 2... it is your choice to give up in A1904 w/ 6 dots in a WTA game... it is also your choice to stomp your feet and pout - but dont then be offended that someone calls you out for being childish, churlish, and quite annoying.
now my turn to complain about you... after our first dust-up, I though you made it quite clear that you did not want to play with me and that you did not believe in WTA games. I then went on to create a WTA game a few weeks back and you promptly joined it... fine. but then I created a 2nd game and very specifically asked that 'people i'm playing in other games with' do not join... (which was directed at YOU)... yet again, you promptly joined THAT WTA game as well.
so what gives? do you enjoy stalking me now? does it pleasure you to join games I start to then 'suicide' me just to prove a point and to ruin my experience on this site? Can you please do me a favor and steer clear of my games in the future since I do NOT enjoy playing with you and I do not consider you a serious player nor even a considerate human being. We can continue our disagreements and conversations here on the forum and I will engage you as respectfully as I know how... but I ask that you stay out of my games... can you promise me that?