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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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thewonderllama (100 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
GFDT last call!
Have you registered? If so, make sure you're on the registered players list: http://www.llamanation.org/gfdt2008#registered_list
Those who registered in the first couple of days were lost in a hardware failure. Make sure to re-register if you haven't already.

Not registered yet? Act now! Registration closes in less than 2 days! http://www.llamanation.org/gfdt2008
13 replies
Open
RiffArt (1299 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
Spirit of the Game
A situation in one of my current games has led me to wonder what exactly the "spirit" of the game is.
RiffArt (1299 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
A situation in one of my current games has led me to wonder what exactly the "spirit" of the game is. Here's the situation:

Playing as Italy, I allied with Russia against Austria and then Turkey. Meanwhile England, France and Germany fought amongst themselves, no-one really dominating. England was engaged in low-scale fighting Russia in Scandinavia.
With Turkey out of the picture, Russia turned on me. I couldn't have survived on my own, but an alliance England-France-Italy formed to take on the now very large Russia, and Germany. France sent three fleets into the Med to replace those I'd had to disband, and with French help, and Russia missing a turn or two, we fairly quickly eliminated Russia and Germany. In doing so, I grew very large, England slightly smaller, and whereas French gains had largely been limited to Germany, England occupied Scandinavia, StP, Moscow and StP. wherea I held most of Turkey, all of the Balkans, Austria and Italy.
England and I then turned on France.

Here's my question, what do YOU think the spirit of the game is?
Is it in keeping with the spirit of the game to attack an ally whose help ensured not only your survival but your prosperity, or do you "owe" him something?
Would agreeing to a 3-way draw be against the spirit of the game which dictates you should try to win (or at least reduce the number of players involved in a draw) whenever feasible?
And finally, is a win where you betray only one ally "better" (in any way) that a (quicker) win where you betray two?

I'm pretty certain that betrayal is the way to go if you're as certain to win as (I think) I am. This is obviously a game, and so the fact that this clashes with ordinary morality doesn't matter (I don't think), but does anyone think that we should apply ordinary morality in such situations? Morality such as repaying your debts, being trustworthy and loyal?

I'm looking forwards to hearing your thoughts.
stratagos (3269 D(S))
06 Nov 08 UTC
You can play as you wish - but people remember both loyalty and betrayal. If the situation you describes comes around again, you may find it a bit harder to find those willing to help you...
Chrispminis (916 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
It's completely arguable. You should play the way you feel the game should be played, and try not be too predictable. Personally, I would probably go for the win. =)
RiffArt (1299 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
Sorry, maybe I wasn't completely clear. I know how I think the game should be played, and everyone can play as they wish. I just wondered how other people thought the game should be played - and why?
figlesquidge (2131 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
I prefer to be loyal, I've found it pays.
The only thing I *really* stick by which isn't a rule is to always try and be friendly. It is a game after all, we're not actually taking over nations so be polite!
Thucydides (864 D(B))
06 Nov 08 UTC
Try to win no matter what. That is the spirit of the game. Pull no punches, but be honorable, and fight to the last.
PirateJack (400 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
I'm of the opinion that if you're in a position where you could win by stabbing an ally, then you should do it, no matter how long you have been allied. Then again, I've met people who will stubbornly refuse to even contemplate a stab against their ally even when they could potentially gain a substantial number of centres. Then again, I can't (literally can't) understand people who would rather suicide bomb the person who stabbed them than attempt to survive with as many centres as possible.
aoe3rules (949 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
@PirateJack: Threatening to suicide bomb someone is a perfectly valid tactic, as it is a great deterrent against stabs. I agree that I can't see why you would actually do it, though, except in a minor game to convince opponents that you would actually do it in a major game. But wait, that's not allowed.
dangermouse (5551 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
In pure diplomacy or if the game is winner take all then you are completly justified in going for a solo victory - regardless of the costs.

PPSC games violate some of the tenants of Diplomacy in my opinion but I've learned to live with it. Treating PPSC games as WTA simply means you lose. In these games I can see honoring an alliance as you described for a 2 or 3 way draw however I don't see it as necessary.
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
The best use I can think of for suicide bombing is... not actually doing it, but convincing multiple powers you are so they step in. :3
dangermouse (5551 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
Regarding "surviving with as many supply centres as possible". It's still losing. The objective of the game is to win. And yes, PPSC perverts this. Too bad it's a necessary evil.
Tasius (100 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
I think PPSC just brings another dimension to the game as it enriches the complexity of the negotiations and formation of alliances. Anyway, life is rarely a WTA.

As for the point that Stratagos was making about people remembering whether a player is a serial backstabber and that this could have consequences in later games depends on the size of the community of players and on the possibilities of finding each other frequently. A very interesting and readable book in these matters is "The evolution of cooperation" by R. Axelrod.
Churchill (2280 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Hmm, looking at dangermouse's ELO rank v. DP rank I'd say he's profited quite a bit from this necessary evil.
EdiBirsan (1469 D(B))
07 Nov 08 UTC
'Spirit of the game' is what you and your 6 fellow players eventually create.
Each game is made of anew, with different emphasis on achievement as measured by the players interactions that make playing for points, for rank, for revenge, for torment, for fun, for beers on a dare or whatever.
dangermouse (5551 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
@Church -That's hard to say. Many of my points were gained in games prior to the point system being implemented (it was retroactively applied to old games). All of those were played as WTA though they ended up being paid out as PPSC. In addition, I suspect my ELO rating is lower in part because I've taken over quite a few CD countries who were at a disadvantage. It's also lower because there are better players out there.

@Edi/Tasius - Very true. But the official objective of Diplomacy is to win the game. Using PPSC, or any other scoring system which rewards being 1st loser, changes the way the game is played. It's a judgement call about which style you like better.
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
1. Clearly, if a game is played with the idea that it is the only thing that matters and your life depends on it then everything is allowed - and any moral issues are irrelevant. You did what you had to do.
2. Clearly being a member of this community means that no games is simply for itself, and it's definitely not a matter of life and death :) - so some amount ot moral limitations is ok.
I have some basic guidlines to help me sort such issues out:
- Points are not important, end-game status is (e.g. elimination/survival/draw/win). In WTA games survival=elimination.
- I would not attack an ally in order to get more points, but only in case this will give me a better end-game status (e.g. a draw or a win).
- Getting a better draw (e.g. 3-way instead of a 4-way) is not a valid reason to attack an ally.
- If I backstabbed an ally I will take care to not eliminate him
Churchill (2280 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Fair enough mousey.

PPSC is especially played in draws. If you are number 2, it might be more profitable to backstab a very weak ally and gain more points while forfeiting the game.
RiffArt (1299 D)
08 Nov 08 UTC
That's interesting Ivo, I assume when you say "this will give me a better end-game status" that you mean "this will probably", or something like that, rather than only when it's guaranteed 100%, which is rare in diplomacy.

May I ask why you think, that if points don't matter (and I agree they don't), that in a WTA survival = elimination? Surely it shouldn't matter if it' WTA vs. PPSC if points don't matter?
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
08 Nov 08 UTC
Hi RiffArt, yes, of course, it's never 100% certain :) - but, especially in the late game it's usually easy to estimate what will happen - so you know if back-stabbing will give you the win (realistically) or not.

As for WTA games - there're only two reasonable objectives for these games - a win, or a draw. Finishing second with 16 centers is, for all practical purposes, just as good as finishing with no centers. Not because of points - but because that's the rules of the game (all goes to the winner) - so any efforts to get more centers while not getting a win/draw make no sense by definition.


19 replies
lazysummer8484 (0 DX)
08 Nov 08 UTC
Quick question
Suppose you just captured a center in autumn.
If you move out of that center in winter but happen to bounce back to it, would you get a build next turn?

thanks
3 replies
Open
Domokun
DOMO KUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
04 Nov 08 UTC
New sort of team game?
This will be a team game where no-one except your partner (and the arbiter) knows who you're teamed with.
25 replies
Open
david707 (100 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Internal Server Error
Here is a message that comes up whenever i try to update orders or open my chat with a player:
7 replies
Open
amsgnoj (107 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
pausing games
dear mods,
i need all games paused. i am very busy and i have berely enough time to do my turns. so i need them paused for this weekend since i wont be there. im sure you can go to my player profile an go into all my games that arnt over and pause them, thankyou. this includes friday.
5 replies
Open
Which religion/non- religion are you part of?
We've had age and gender so why not religion/non-religion?
423 replies
Open
warsprite (152 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
No one has supported my suggestion.
I thought by now there would have been a rush of Obama supporters backing my ideal. Perhaps I should have used the figures aoe3rules stated. That would hve been more appealing to them. Per there just hung over.
40 replies
Open
gryncat (2606 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Moderate bet, good game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6610

Should make for a nice pot. Looking for players, preferably ones who are civil over press.
2 replies
Open
DrOct (219 D(B))
07 Nov 08 UTC
Yet another Rules Question
Yet another question about support that I think I know the answer too...

(see below)
7 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
05 Nov 08 UTC
Is Obama Really President Elect, Or Is It Not Official Till The Electoral College Meets?
Well, is it?
53 replies
Open
paulg (358 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
How reliable is the timing of the end of phase
If I want to give someone some information about 30 seconds before so that they won't have time to change their moves.
12 replies
Open
lazysummer8484 (0 DX)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Quick Question
this is hard to explain so I'll use an example:
3 replies
Open
WhiteSammy (132 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Too Much Russia
I know its random but seriously...
7 replies
Open
SteadyBuffalo (100 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
New Game!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6611
0 replies
Open
youradhere (1345 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
What on earth....
Can someone please explain to me what's going on in this game...
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6028
It says that Junior21 won, despite the fact that he only has 3 centers...
8 replies
Open
Fuller (312 D)
07 Nov 08 UTC
Unable to break a convoy
Hi, in my game "Game of Thrones," I attacked a French fleet in the English Channel while that fleet was attempting to convoy an army into England. However, my attack on the fleet did not break the convoy - shouldn't it have?
1 reply
Open
warsprite (152 D)
05 Nov 08 UTC
In celebration of Obama's victory.
I propose that the top 10% of the players with the most points have 95% of there points be given to the 45%players with the lowest 45%.
59 replies
Open
thewonderllama (100 D)
01 Nov 08 UTC
All registrants for GFDT 2008, PLEASE READ
My computer just took a dump and when it came back up, my database of registrants was completely gone. That means if you registered before today (Saturday, November 1st) before 2:54 PM CDT (19:54 UTC), I no longer have your registration information and you'll need to re-register. I've already made changes to the registration script to have it save a backup copy remotely, so this won't happen again.

I'm really sorry about the trouble this causes anyone.
36 replies
Open
TheMasterGamer (3491 D)
05 Nov 08 UTC
Percentages
Would it be possible or desired to have the percentages for a player to NOT include the currently being played games?
3 replies
Open
Richard (100 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
join game quick
i want to play
1 reply
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
06 Nov 08 UTC
Has anyone ever played a game where nobody has gone CD?
I have been playing both here and on Facebook, in total I have played or am currently playing 10 games. I haven't a single game yet where no-one went CD.
7 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
02 Nov 08 UTC
The Ghost Ratings List (Experienced)
For players who have played 8 games or more, so have accurate ratings.
68 replies
Open
Gannon12 (2936 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
Help me Kestas-Reactivating 'Alfa' 's account
My friend and I played Diplomacy on here frequestionly last year. I have recently gotten back into playing and he wants to return as well. Unfortunately his account, 'Alfa' would not respond to his password.

Could you please provide some clarification and help in restoring/getting access his account.
0 replies
Open
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
06 Nov 08 UTC
So I wasn't paying attention and, uh, accidentally MADE A GAME. X_X
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6601
Can this thing get PEWPEW'd out of existence, please? D:
0 replies
Open
jenspo (1242 D)
05 Nov 08 UTC
Fast Gunboat game
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6594

No Diplomacy allowed. No Press Allowed. Global Forum should only be used for coordinating Pause, and other meta game stuff.
1 reply
Open
figlesquidge (2131 D)
02 Nov 08 UTC
Players from the diplomacy nations?
I'm interested in trying to play a game with people representing their own nations. I am English, and am hoping to find 6 others to join me in the game. How to arrange that we all get the right countries is a question, but if needed i'll open up signups on my server. Having said that, I don't know how long it will take me to find the required players.
Any volunteers?
29 replies
Open
Mick (630 D)
05 Nov 08 UTC
Rules query about convoys
This is probably a very basic question for the experts on the boards. This is the scenario. A fleet in the North Sea is convoying an army from Yorkshire to Norway (which is unoccupied). The North Sea fleet is attacked by an enemy fleet from Holland, but is not dislodged from the North Sea. Will the army succesfully arrive in Norway?
2 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
04 Nov 08 UTC
Any interest in a game for Deadheads?
<follows>

4 replies
Open
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