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orathaic (1009 D (B))
10 Aug 15 UTC
Snowden Interview
Recent interview with German tv, apparently not shown in the US and not available on youtube?? m.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151

He makes some interesting points...
orathaic (1009 D (B))
11 Aug 15 UTC
(+1)
No comments, seriously? Is this just so uncontraversial?
Should i have posted something about murdering Snowden to get the conversation going: www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edward-snowden-dead#.ynxPgONbP
Or is John Oliver right, and we need to make this about dick pics to make it interesting: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M

When the head of an intelligence agency knowingly lies to congress, and then after it is revealed nothing happens, surely there is something wrong with your country. Deeply wrong. And yet no comments.

Traitor or Hero of the People?
Jamiet99uk (795 D)
11 Aug 15 UTC
What does this have to do with abortions or the US constitu-shun?
LeinadT (146 D)
11 Aug 15 UTC
Hero of the People. If I was president, I'd pardon him on the first day. Maybe give him a cabinet position or make him head of the CIA.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Aug 15 UTC
The US constitution says you can't allow the government to murder US citizens without a fair trial.

Snowden says he can't come back to the US because they wouldn't give him a fair trial... (That the espionage act - which he is charged under - was designed for people giving information to foreign governments and blowing up bridges, not giving away information to US journalists and informing the public about crimes committed by the state)
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Aug 15 UTC
And the buzzfeed article is discussing him as if he's not even human - very similar to abortion, right? You know, a 150th term abortion...
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Aug 15 UTC
I would like him as the Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs, granting him political immunity..
MarquisMark (326 D (G))
12 Aug 15 UTC
Snowden has a fair point and I wouldn't come back here if I were him. It would be a complete kangaroo court for his trial. Better to live in Russia than an American prison.

His story resonates especially with the Germans, given their history and so forth. I think they would happily give him asylum but that would cause some political problems, extradition treaties and so forth.

I definitely don't think he's a traitor but also not a "hero of the people," so to speak. He has done the service of bringing attention to some very troublesome behavior by the US government that is worthy of some self-reflection. The fact that what he's done has been such an incident means that it's something we have to think about.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Aug 15 UTC
I had time to watch the video now, but he says everything quite well so nothing to add, really.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Aug 15 UTC
The shock factor is also kind of gone.

All data on the internet is being gathered. Quelle surprise.

Before Snowden it wasn't hard to guess, when he blew the whistle we knew for certain, this interview is just a bit of clarification, really..
Espi (338 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
^ Snowden also went to Russia of all places, which is one of the few countries he shouldn't have gone to if he was completely a 'Hero of the People'. Going there, where things have never been anywhere as open as in the US, wasn't a smart move. Granted, most of the countries he could have gone to, likely wouldn't have accepted him, but he didn't have to go to Russia. It hurt the US more then it helped.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
There are few places Snowden could have gone with the international clout to keep him safe. Russia and China may be the only two countries big and strong enough. He wanted to go to Ecuador, but that would have not been a good option. Russia was the right choice of all the bad choices.
LeinadT (146 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
He didn't choose to go to Russia, he was at a Russian airport when the US government cancelled his passport.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
He chose to go through Russia.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
If he had been stranded in a host of other major nations, he would have been extradited almost immediately.
Randomizer (104 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
Snowden would still fall under the Espionage Act because the information he released indirectly went to foreign governments and terrorists. It's the same thing when Bush administration members leaked Victoria Plame was a CIA agent to a newspaper. Because some information could reveal agents it's prosecutable.

I'm sure most of the world would like him to stay in Russia and leave him as Putin's problem.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Aug 15 UTC
Putins has many problems, some perhaps demographic others economic, but Snowden is a tiny unimportant piece in a great game. I doubt Putins gives a crap, other than being happy to prove he can stop the US President from getting what he wants.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Aug 15 UTC
@Steephie, sure but isn't it illegal?
fiedler (1293 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
Presumably he did choose to go to Russia, at least temporarily. Unless they are selling lucky dips at the airport these days?
fiedler (1293 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
Oh, and you can guarantee as part of his 'rent' to live in russia, he will have been fully debriefed by russian intelligence on EVERYTHING he knew about his job. In the technical sense, he is absolutely a defector and traitor to the western military-industrial establishment. Not that its all that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. His access was high but not of course even remotely comprehensive.
LeinadT (146 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
(+1)
To me, a traitor to the western military-industrial establishment is basically the definition of "hero of the people."
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@ora: Yes. I think the point you're making is lost on me.

@fiedler: How can you guarantee that?
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
Because he can either tell the russians everything or spend the rest of his life in a solitary cell in US military prison with no real hope of escape or release. Just ask Manuel Noriega or Chelsea Manning. If you think the Russians are too 'nice' to insist on full cooperation, then you are living in a dream world.
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
Which people LeinadT? Where you from?
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@fiedler: Why would the Russians want Snowden in a solitary cell?
The Russians have every interest in keeping Snowden out of jail and his reputation intact. Why risk that to acquire information which they probably have already?

If Snowden had access working for a private company, what are the odds that Russia wasn't able to get the data?
phil_a_s (0 D X)
13 Aug 15 UTC
fiedler, do you actually think it is appropriate to equate Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden and Manuel Noriega? Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden are whistleblowers, Manuel Noriega was a corrupt CIA-planted but disloyal power broker.
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
Sure I do. Oh 'corrupt' was he? Not like the US military-industrial complex at all then...

They all displeased their masters. I'm not particularly interested in splitting hairs on the point.
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
Steephie read what I wrote - If the Russians kick him out it's prison forever in a U.S. cell, or worse.

You seem to be implying that a private company is less secure than a government dept? Not necessarily so, often quite the opposite.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@Steephie: sure, yes we knew before Snowden that there was information being gathered. But now we have evidence that laws were being broken - and yet there is no call to prosecute those responcible.

I mean US laws, obviously the German interviewer was more cocerned with spying on US allies, because that is what interests the German audience. But it is clear that people lied under oath to congress.

They over-reached their authority and there is no-one to stop them. So after Snowden gave journalists ( the fourth estate? ) the evidence of these crimes, what happened? Nothing? The Powers That Be just want to hush it up and turn the story into what a terrible traitor Snowden is? No politician is running on a platform promising to clean up this corrupt system.

The people are left to fend for themselves against a massively superior force.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
Just read 1984.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
"If the Russians kick him out it's prison forever in a U.S. cell, or worse."

Fiedler read what I wrote - That's why the Russians won't kick him out. I just explained why they don't want him in a cell, or risk Snowden losing rep by working for the Russians.
Furthermore, the Russians would want the Americans to think that becoming a whistleblower is a fine idea: just get to Russia and you're safe, no questions asked.
Russians hack too, and someone on Russian payroll could work for a private company, or have a private company, and get in the kind of position Snowden was in. The odds of the Russians being unable to hack this information, unable to get someone into a position like Snowden's and unable to bribe someone in a position like Snowden's are small.
Think bigger. None of the information is a surprise, but now it's official and the government can't ignore it. It was all about PR from the start and if Russia does nothing with Snowden, all eyes will be on the US government, with the public demanding change and more whistleblowers closer to the edge. The public is more and more hostile to the government, all great for Russia.

Russia's best play is doing absolutely nothing.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@ora: Do you disagree on something I said? I agree with you, I feel like I'm still missing the point you're making.

As for one change Snowden did make:
Because it's official now, it will be easier for people to campaign against these things. I'm not particularly surprised that no politician is running on such a platform yes, such things take time to prepare.
Might not happen soon, maybe not in our lifetimes.. Don't know. The obstacle is slightly lower now though.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
Russia's best play is to sabotage the opec nations to save their economy from collapse - just as their demographics get really skewed and people seeing poverty stop having children which they can't afford (Don't ask me why, but Russia and China seem to have bigger families coming from wealthier sections of society, which seems to contradict the classic poor countries and people having the larger families) Russia needs to do something to manage the crippling EU sanctions and sort out its food supply issues - they have banned the import of food from the EU as a retaliation and this will likely push up food prices and potentially cause famine-like conditions...

Doing nothing will destroy Russia - like i said above, Snowden is the smallest concern of theirs.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@Steephie, i was responding to the but where you said 'Snowden made no difference, we knew they were collecting information, and now we have some evidence...'

Or to give the direct quote "Before Snowden it wasn't hard to guess, when he blew the whistle we knew for certain, this interview is just a bit of clarification, really.."
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
"That's why the Russians won't kick him out."
- did I say they would kick him out? No I didn't. You are creating an argument out of nothing.

Your argument contradicts itself - you say they already know everything Snowden does yet they are supposedly desperate to encourage more whistle blowers? Why if they already know everything?

"risk Snowden losing rep by working for the Russians"
- yes because his 'Rep' with the western establishment is just solid gold. No one can ever prove Snowden worked for the Russians unless there was a video leak. Which is extremely unlikely in Putins Russia. Your idea that Snowden's knowledge would be of no interest to the kremlin is naive.

"just get to Russia and you're safe" - well duh, that's been standard procedure for almost 100 years....

"The public is more and more hostile to the government, all great for Russia."
- I will be very impressed if you can explain why that would be 'great for russia'.

Fucken kid telling me to 'think bigger'. You're lucky you don't get a spanking.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@ora: I meant doing nothing with Snowden. You're right though.

I'll try to clarify the bit you quoted:
The interview, on its own, isn't really revelating because we knew everything he says in it when Snowden blew the whistle.

Now when Snowden blew the whistle, the crimes which the USA almost certainly committed became official. So what really happened here is that, theoretically, the US government or people working for it could, theoretically, be held accountable.

The US government won't hold itself accountable and the rest of the world is unlikely to, so what changed, in my mind, is that the US public can now talk about the crimes committed by the government without official denials blurring the lines of what actually happened.

That means that someone could go to Congress about it, for instance, but this will have to be someone new and not part of the establishment. This because the people in the establishment who aren't in knee-deep are still suspicious to the public.

Basically it's one step closer to the dream of enacting real changes from the bottom up.
That's very much long-term though.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
@fiedler: "Because he can either tell the russians everything or spend the rest of his life in a solitary cell in US military prison with no real hope of escape or release."

This sounds to me like kicking Snowden out of Russia if he doesn't talk. Clearly I see that wrong.

"Your argument contradicts itself - you say they already know everything Snowden does yet they are supposedly desperate to encourage more whistle blowers? Why if they already know everything?"

PR.

"- yes because his 'Rep' with the western establishment is just solid gold."

Not with the establishment, the public. He also isn't unpopular in establishments outside of the USA, so you either just changed your definition of 'western' to American or you're wrong.

What Snowden knows, many know. Your idea that no one talks to the Kremlin is naive.

"well duh, that's been standard procedure for almost 100 years...."

Exactly why you don't want to risk that procedure to extort one whistleblower.

"- I will be very impressed if you can explain why that would be 'great for russia'."

I should clarify that I was talking about the US government. Presumably I don't need to tell you how it would be useful for Russia if the American capability to stick their nose in Russia's business was reduced?
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
Your definition of the west sounds interesting. In what western establishments is Snowden not unpopular?

Also, please tell me how American capability to mess with Russia is at all affected by the likes of snowden?
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
He isn't unpopular in most of Europe, for instance.

The public could grow more hostile to the government, meaning the USA has bigger worries than Russia, and the USA is more careful to pull shit.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
Angela Merkel, head of one of the biggest 'Western' economies, must really like knowing the US has been spying on her.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
Though the US public could give two shits about what the NSA does to Russia. Well there may be some minority who care about the US being an imperialist nation and not acting like a 19th Century european nation... But by and large i don't think it will make much difference.
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
I see. So if Snowden were to fly to an airport somewhere in 'most of Europe' he would be quite safe huh?

Yeh look ure obviously a bright kid but you have a lot to learn about how the world really works.

Julian Assange is another that must be questioning the wisdom of his choices.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
13 Aug 15 UTC
No fiedler, the US allies (ie Western Europe) would like arrest and extradict him, based on they legal obligations under the terms of their alliance with the US.

That fact that he is popular has more to do with the US being a shit ally...
fiedler (1293 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
That was what I was implying.
The fact that he might be popular with a lot of powerless sheep is irrelevant.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
Definitely irrelevant. You made a wrong assertion and I corrected you, though.
Nescio (1069 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
fiedler, what are you trying to prove? It isn't forbidden to express your personal opinion that you think Snowden is a traitor, thief, or terrorist. However, implying Snowden is unpopular in "Western establishments" is plainly wrong.

Opinion polls suggest Snowden is considered a hero by the majority of the populations of Canada, the UK, Germany, and several other Western nations. The press across the globe was mostly favourable.
Furthermore, Snowden received several prestigious awards (e.g. Right Livelihood Award) and honorary positions (e.g. Dean of the University of Glasgow), had and was chosen as person of the year 2013 by various journals and newspapers, including several based in the USA.

Various heads of states, ministers, ambassadors, politicians, and other diginitaries have met Snowden. The European Parliament invited Snowden to speak to them via a video message. The United Nations General Assembly passed a favourable resolution, and the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights asked the US to abandon its efforts to prosecute Snowden.

Taking everything together, Snowden appears to be quite popular. And not only with "a lot of powerless sheep"
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Aug 15 UTC
And thanks!
fiedler (1293 D)
14 Aug 15 UTC
NO THANK YOU.

"implying Snowden is unpopular in "Western establishments" is plainly wrong "

- err I think you need to look up 'establishment' in the dictionary. Have a nice day.
JamesYanik (548 D)
14 Aug 15 UTC
(+1)
i feel like everyone knows snowden is bitch, but then everyone else is also a bitch. so yeah. Politics...

(did i contribute well papa?)
(no son, you did not)
JamesYanik (548 D)
14 Aug 15 UTC
Yeah most of west europe likes snowden, but west europe is kinda in a bad place right now. The balkans are a corrupt mess, Britain is stingy and won't help everyone else, France is a political madhouse that needs to grasp the concept of human rights, and Germany is having to hold up everyone else by the scruff of their neck, while even still today fighting off occasional socialist advances.


but yeah i love snowden


49 replies
fulhamish (4134 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
Climate change - another feedback loop
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150805140254.htm

Time to recalibrate those models..........................again
30 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (795 D)
13 Aug 15 UTC
(+4)
The death of the republic
http://diprepublic.net/?reqp=1&reqr=

Oh no. How sad.
9 replies
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Tru Ninja (1016 D (S))
05 Aug 15 UTC
ESPN Fantasy Football Signups
For those that will play only ESPN league, post interest here. List your preferred draft day (I prefer late preseason Saturday or Sunday around 1 p.m. Central Time

1. Tru Ninja (Sat Aug 29th or Sun Aug 30th)
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Thucydides (864 D (B))
04 Aug 15 UTC
GRE scores
What's a good score? Share your score too, if you feel comfortable. I just took the test this morning
65 replies
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alulahello (0 D X)
12 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
halloween costumes 2015
I know, 3 months early blahblah. But I'm bored and I want to talk about Halloween.
Some people are into crazy Costumes and go all out to make them. Brainstrom ideas for costumes and how to make/obtain them. What are you thinking of going as?
1 reply
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goldfinger0303 (3157 D Mod)
11 Aug 15 UTC
Opposite Gender Friends leads to Lower Academic Performance
Interesting paper I'm reading right now. Not completely done with it, but its methodology seems sound.

http://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/app.20140030
37 replies
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ssorenn (0 D X)
12 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
this is interesting--watch the video
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/08/10/everyone-fails-to-ride-this-bike-you-would-too-this-is-what-it-tells-us-about-the-brain/
6 replies
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P13ANATOR (100 D)
12 Aug 15 UTC
Hi I am new, quick question
I am starting a game with some friends, can you play with less than 7 people? If so, is anything different compared to a full game? Thanks :-)
8 replies
Open
ND (879 D)
20 Jul 15 UTC
(+12)
MX: All Star Game
See inside for details
5191 replies
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Valis2501 (2804 D (G))
10 Aug 15 UTC
MAFIA XI: Confirmations
I know some people may not realize sign up thread is also confirmation thread so let's make that ultra clear:
Starts 8/11/15, 6 PM EDT
140 replies
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guak (3381 D)
11 Aug 15 UTC
When retards play gunboat
3 replies
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JamesYanik (548 D)
11 Aug 15 UTC
Fly Free My Baby :'(
I just sold my first computer, it was really old but i'll never forget its beauty. I never can think of things to bring on trips, but my computer was my best possession. It was like a Mac -1... you know, pre-internet
10 replies
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bo_sox48 (5125 D Mod (G))
10 Aug 15 UTC
Ferguson
Apparently the anniversary of Mike Brown's death turned into a reenactment. Anyone know anything?
21 replies
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2ndWhiteLine (3375 D (B))
04 Aug 15 UTC
2015 Gunboat Tournament Ideas
See inside.
57 replies
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trip (696 D (B))
10 Aug 15 UTC
Cheap Gunboats
3 games, 10 point, 36hr, WTA, HDV, Anon
First come, first served...
15 replies
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ghug (5068 D (B))
29 Jul 15 UTC
(+2)
Pacific Northwest FTF
I've only ever played FTF with people who don't really care about the game and want to be done after a year, and I always feel a twinge of jealousy when I sew those people having fun playing in real life on that crappy coast across the country. This is just a post to see who might be interested in getting something set up on this side of the country. I'm in the Seattle area.
30 replies
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Hlud (115 D)
10 Aug 15 UTC
Monday Evening Live-2
I'm trying to join Monday Evening Live-2 starting in half an hour, as it only shows 6 current players, but only gives me the option to spectate. Why is this? My RR is 100%
8 replies
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TrPrado (461 D Mod)
05 Aug 15 UTC
(+2)
Conundrum
So the people who make the schedules at my school are kinda dumb. I signed up for both AP Micro/Macroeconomics and AP European History. Only one class of each is being offered. And they happen to be the same hour. So I need to drop one and pick up some other course. I really don't know, so what (preferably AP) course would you suggest for me to take instead of AP Micro/Macroeconomics (because there's no chance I'll drop Euro)?
132 replies
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Valis2501 (2804 D (G))
07 Aug 15 UTC
(+3)
DIPCON @ Philadelphia Massacre - Live
I'm risking life and limb to bring you guys the latest news all weekend and all tournament long.
108 replies
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Check_mate (100 D)
03 May 15 UTC
(+4)
Not "Who am I?", but WHERE am I?
Have some time to kill. Ask yes/no questions to guess WHERE I am. If you guess right you go next. If you guess wrong you're out for the rest of the round.
1022 replies
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Valis2501 (2804 D (G))
07 Jul 15 UTC
MAFIA XI: Sign-ups
MAFIA XI: Sign-ups
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ssorenn (0 D X)
04 Aug 15 UTC
The dreams of solo--
Friends and enemies are welcome. 36 hour wta anon 50pt. Who wants action?
34 replies
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Check_mate (100 D)
10 Aug 15 UTC
Cheating accusations
Without mentioning names or game ID's, can I please clarify something.

Making cheating accusations via in-game global press is not allowed, right? The correct procedure being to email the mods who will investigate?
6 replies
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A_Tin_Can (2244 D)
08 Aug 15 UTC
New Italian strategy article
The army in Venice should go to Piedmont.

(with apologies to Chris Martin)
29 replies
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MrcsAurelius (3051 D (B))
23 Jul 15 UTC
(+2)
Setting up a game
Hi, I have been absent for three years. Its startin' to itch, as Diplomacy remains my favorite board game! Want to play a game with a friend of mine who also hasn't played for a long while.
81 replies
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Jamiet99uk (795 D)
09 Aug 15 UTC
I'm still alive
Sorry about that.
13 replies
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Octavious (1705 D)
09 Aug 15 UTC
Clause IV
The people's flag is deepest red, or at least it could be. Comrade Corbyn has been suggesting he could bring back clause IV into the Labour Party constitution. I'm interesting in what it sounds like to an international audience.
5 replies
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JamesYanik (548 D)
09 Aug 15 UTC
My Cat's name is Shadow!!! EOG
This is the difficulty of playing a stalemate line, and I done goofed.
gameID=165777
1 reply
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JamesYanik (548 D)
09 Aug 15 UTC
I got a cat
she is shadow
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CL8At_SUwAAl-74.jpg
8 replies
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