Thucy: I'm sorry, but any intellectual still uses it the way it's always meant.

Just like priests still speak Latin.

Because you've said you don't support Hamas...

And yet you condone their actions.

Also, for Jamiet and Co. in the UK, where it's time for breakfast and WebDip... :p

http://news.yahoo.com/british-jewish-people-fear-future-europe-022311909.html

"The CAA said 2014 saw the most anti-Semitic incidents recorded by police since records began 30 years ago.

Official figures from London's metropolitan police showed anti-Semitic crimes more than doubled in the capital over the 12 months to November 2014, compared to the same period a year earlier.

Anti-Semitic views are not uncommon among British people, according to a separate study conducted by pollster YouGov for the CAA.

A quarter of 3,411 adults surveyed by YouGov believed Jewish people chase money more than other British people.

Meanwhile, 17 percent thought Jews had too much power in the media, and 13 percent said Jews talked about the Holocaust to get sympathy. Overall, 45 percent of those surveyed believed at least one anti-Semitic statement."

^Anyone want to stick by the story Jews are perfectly safe in Europe and other nations, when crime against them is on the rise and 45% answer in to Antisemitic stereotypes?

That's just one poll, so who knows...maybe they caught those 3000+ on a bad day...

But this is a huge part of the reason why Jews equate safety with a state.

MAYBE if crimes against them and Antisemitism weren't on the rise, they might not feel the need to seek out the security of Israel, rocket attacks and all?

I would also say that that's a survey done in BRITAIN...

Which nowadays would rank pretty highly in terms of places it's safe to be a Jew, and even THERE crime against Jews was at its highest level in 30 years and the population doesn't feel safe.

So if that's how Jews in the UK feel, imagine how the might feel in other, less protective parts of Europe, especially with far-right politics in Europe experiencing a renaissance of sorts (because, you know, Far-Right European Parties and Jews mix so well.)

Well...

You won't succeed on Broadway if you don't have any Jews.

^You know what WILL make sure we're safe, once and for all?

COME SEE: JEWS IN SPAAAAAAACEEEE!

WE'RE JEWS OUT IN SPACE, JUST ZOOMING ALONG, PROTECTING THE HEBREW RACE...

(To answer Monty Python with Mel Brooks.) ;)

@ obiwanobiwan:

The CAA is hardly an impartial source, and I think they could be accused of cherry-picking the data to suit their agenda. Yes, there has been a moderate short-term rise in reported anti-semitic incidents in London, specifically, in 2014.

However I think you need to bear a couple of important points in mind, in context of that:

1. 2014 saw a huge flare-up in the mass-murder of Palestinian civilians by the forces of the Israeli state. This was unfortunately bound to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment in some quarters.

2. The vast majority of reported crimes were incidents of verbal abuse. Whilst unpleasant, this doesn't suggest that the majority of London's Jewish community are at imminent risk of violence.

This BBC article might be of some interest to you on this matter:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28853221

As you can see the general *trend* in reported anti-semitic crimes, over the past decade, is actually quite stable.

Obi, Jews are treated quite fairly in any reasonable civilization today. I wear a star around my neck with no second thoughts and absolutely no fear that it will cause harm to me. If someone were to get harassed, a hundred people would come to their defense in an instant.

The same can't be said for countless other minorities. We are quite fortunate.

Where do you live?

Where did I say I condone Hamas' actions? I only ever said it was understandable.

"I condone Hamas' actions" You just said it.

Let the record stand :P

Who knew Kabbalah was so powerful? No wonder the Muslims are afraid of Jews!

http://www.jewishpress.com/tv/video-picks/magical-shape-shifting-jews/2015/01/14/

Gosh, now I am terrified of Jews.

Should you happen upon a shape-shifting magical Jew, KingCyrus, the answer is quite simple--

Ask if he or she is a little chilly and demand they put a sweater on this instant before they catch cold.

That'll scare them off. ;)

This thread, always quite stupid, has become even more so. Thucydides spouting tired lefty brocards, obiwanobiwan writing incomprehensible jibberish, SantaClausowitz being completely reasonable but completely ignored.

And don't forget the magical shape-shifting Jews.

"You can be anti-Israel...the second you condone
Hamas or its actions, in the slightest, THAT starts
to become Antisemitism"

I think there is a grey area (which perhaps Hamas doesn't occupy) between an anti-Zionist position - which justifies killng civilians as a means; and an antisemetic position - which justifies killing jewish civilians as an end.

But that arguement isn't interesting to me, so to avoid further digression; It is entirely possible to sympathise and understand the actions of Hamas, without condoning them (indeed i take a firm pacifist stance on most things, including violence against animals, hence my vegetarianism) but i can still have an opinion about Hamas.

I could infact be of the opinion the Israel should be disestablished (though most states are brought to an end via violence) I don't actually adgocate this position, i think Arabs and Jews can and should live peacfully side-by-side in Israel and throughout the middle-east - but the current state of affairs is deplorable. (i think destroying Israel would leave no state, which would likely be worze than the current setup, though perhaps not as bad for some than for others)

I can understand Hamas, in both it's anti-Zionist and antisemetic tendencies (it is rather easy to conflate these two things, and i don't know any political party which is good a finese) But understanding their violence and condoning/appreciating it are completely seperate. Hamas is popular because their supporters think they are their best alternative. Is it any wonder? Do you think most prison inmates like their warden? And i would like to see Israel tried for war crimes - and change it's policy (but that's about as likely as Hamas changing it's chater, supporting a two-state solution, and recognisin Israel - though nobody, anywhere recognises Israel's 'right to exist', that is not something states do...)